Idle problems after my 3.2 swap!

[jonheese]

EDIT: I have now resolved my electrical woes, but I'm having compression problems. Please read the last post to catch up! Thanks!

Okay, so I've got a '95 3.2L engine and a rebuilt MTX in my '90, and I've got (almost) everything in and connected. My plan was to leave the DIS unconnected and crank it for a little while (10-15 secondsish) to get oil pressure up, then connect the DIS and see if it fires.

Well, yesterday I connected everything (minus the DIS) and cranked it for just a few seconds, then decided to check the codes, to confirm that I had everything plugged in and everything was good.

However... I am getting *NO* KOEO codes. Not a 111 "System OK", I mean *NO* codes. Nothing, not a peep. I checked all of my fuses in the footwell a few weeks ago when it wouldn't crank (ended up being the clutch switch, which I temporarily bypassed), so I think the fuses there are all good.

It's a '90 body harness, so there is no underhood fuse compartment, just a bunch of fusible links (PITA).

Anyone ever seen this before? Cranks fine, dash lights look normal, but it won't fire, and the DTC test doesn't work... I haven't yet checked for fuel or spark, because I figured that if it were either of those, I'd still get codes.

Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

 

[kevinspann]

Are you using a hand held code reader, or a paper clip to get codes? Is the PCM connector seated all the way?

 

[jonheese]

Hand-held code reader, but I can go try a paper clip. When I hit the switch on the code reader, I can hear a couple relays by the radiator support (I'm guessing in the CCRM) click, but then nothing for like 10 minutes.

I will check the PCM connector this afternoon when I get home, but I haven't touched it since I pulled the original engine.

 

[Off Road SHO]

Just check for everything the old fashion way. Fuel pressure with a tire gauge, spark with a timing light or old spark plug and compression with a hand held over the throttle body while cranking. Go from there. You can worry about the codes later.

Tom

 

[RonPorter]

Normally I would interject the typical Facebook SHO response of Burn It or Crush It, but it IS a former George Fourchy car, so it's a keeper!!

 

[rubydist]

I have had very inconsistent results with odb1 code readers, so I never use them any more - more confusing than helpful to me. It sounds like you are having the same type of results.

 

[Racer X]

- ECU Ground Wire at the battery
- CCRM, did you use the correct one for a 1990? Is it connected properly?
- Check Engine light? Is it bright? Dim? Extinguished?

 

[zak]

Are you using the '95 ATX engine harness, or the '90 engine harness?

 

[jonheese]

Just check for everything the old fashion way. Fuel pressure with a tire gauge, spark with a timing light or old spark plug and compression with a hand held over the throttle body while cranking. Go from there. You can worry about the codes later.

Hmmm... Interesting idea. Okay, next time I get out to the car (time during the week is scarce), I'll definitely try those.

I have a compression and leakdown tester, and I think I have a fuel pressure gauge lying around somewhere-- never thought of using a tire gauge.

To tell the truth, I really haven't truly attempted to start the car with the DIS connected. For all I know, it will start right up, although I really doubt it at this point...

I have had very inconsistent results with odb1 code readers, so I never use them any more - more confusing than helpful to me. It sounds like you are having the same type of results.

That is possible. I was just wrapping up when I decided to check the codes, so I didn't have time to do much more than plug in my goofy little handheld tester (which, by the way, hasn't been used in 6 years and needed a new 9V to even turn of). I'll give it a shot with the old paper clip next time.

- ECU Ground Wire at the battery
- CCRM, did you use the correct one for a 1990? Is it connected properly?
- Check Engine light? Is it bright? Dim? Extinguished?

- ECU ground wire looks good, and the CEL is bright, not dim, as I would expect from a bad ECU ground.
- The CCRM is the one that was installed from the factory on this car, an "M"
- CEL bright and definitely present on KO

Are you using the '95 ATX engine harness, or the '90 engine harness?

Aha, you've probably been reading my other threads, huh? Yes, I did swap them so it's got the '90 engine harness on it now. That really solved all of my "why the **** don't these connectors match up?!" problems... Duh!

Thanks to everyone who replied. I will try Tom's and Rubydist's suggestions and post back when I know more. Additional ideas are welcome.

 

[SHOtime2511]

Keep it simple.
Only a few things are required for an engine to fire.
Air
Spark
fuel
Compression (achieved with proper engine timing)

 

[jonheese]

Keep it simple.
Only a few things are required for an engine to fire.
Air
Spark
fuel
Compression (achieved with proper engine timing)

Yup, I'm no newbie there. I'm not troubleshooting an "engine not firing" problem, I'm troubleshooting a "ECU gives no codes" problem. I haven't even tried to fire the engine up yet.

Thanks.

 

[LOUDSHO92]

I had the same thing when I revived a SHO and it ran fine. first try hooking up the DIS and starting it. Whats the worst that can happen? It wont start?

 

[jonheese]

Yeah, I suppose. FYI, it wasn't that I was afraid to try to start it or anything like that-- I just ran out of time to work on it for the day. My kid was waking up from his nap and Mom needed to go tend to her horse (she's the family equestrian and had been watching him all morning while I worked on the car) and I still needed to put away tools, take a shower, etc.

The next chance I get to work on it, I had planned on giving it a go. But I really doubt it's going to run-- I'm not very confident that I didn't forget something that's major enough to 1) cause the DTCs to not work and 2) not allow the engine to run.

I'll post back here when I have more on that. Thanks.

 

[jonheese]

Okay, made some progress today.

After 13 seconds spent hooking up the battery, turning on the key, and hitting the switch on the handheld tester... I got codes. This is an X2J, so it gives 3-digit codes:

565 - Canister Purge (CANP) solenoid -- circuit failure
512 - Electronic Control Assembly (ECA) problem -- Keep Alive Memory test failure

1. (565) Is the CANP solenoid that cylinder with two long vacuum hoses attached to it that's dangling around on the driver's side on top of the transmission? I assume that one of the hoses attaches to the intake for vacuum, but I haven't yet figured out where the other end goes. I do have the solenoid plugged in to the harness, but I may not have the last time I tried to crank it.

This code shouldn't cause the engine to fail to run, right?

2. (512) I just hooked up the battery after a week, and it went away in subsequent tests, so I figure it was probably because it was the first key-on since hooking up the battery, so it wasn't detecting the KAM codes.

So then I cranked the engine, first without the DIS plugged, then with. Didn't seem to fire at all with the DIS connected, although I did smell fuel. Ran the codes again and got:

565 - Same
111 - System pass

So then I:
1. Checked spark plug wires against the Ford SHO Engine Book (not the erroneous Chilton one), everything is correct.
2. Plugged an old spark plug into the #4 wire and cranked with a remote starter switch, sparks fine.
3. Checked fuel pressure at the rail, roughly 30 psi sitting after cranking ~5 minutes earlier, seems fine to me.

Some more info: When I hooked up the remote starter switch I was able to be under the hood while cranking (trans confirmed in neutral, parking brake set, wheels chocked, of course), and I'm hearing a really loud *CHIFF* once a revolution (I think) while cranking. Much louder than any other sound, and it smells vaguely like partially burned fuel afterwards.

When I unhooked the #4 wire, the *chiff* sound went away, so I'm guessing it's something on #4. Also, when I held the throttle to WOT, it went away, so I'm guessing that it's fuel combusting, possibly at the wrong time...

And then my battery was just about spent. I think it's on its way out (it's at least 5 years old) and I know there are draws in the car (interior lights won't turn off, haven't figured out what's causing that yet), so I decided to jump it with my Tahoe. So I connected the jumpers, started the Tahoe, and now it cranks much faster (like normal), and no more *chiff* sound.

But it's not starting either. Still just 565 and 111 in the codes.

I haven't yet consulted the EVTM to figure out what all the vacuum ******* on the intake go to, but I do have the FPR and the secondaries hooked up to vacuum, and the PCV valve connected to the throttle body as it is on my parts car. Could a bad vacuum leak (like two vacuum ******* that haven't yet been used) cause the car to not start like this?

Any and all suggestions on what to try next are appreciated.

 

[jonheese]

Okay, so I checked compression two ways, as Tom suggested, and both gave disturbing results:

1. Used my HF compression tester.
2. Put my hand over the throttle body while cranking, checking for suction.

The compression tester results did not make me happy:

#4 - 165 psi (okay, sounds good)
#5 - 90 psi (dammit)
#6 - 186 psi (okay, maybe it's just one bad cylinder?)
#1 - 85 psi (dammit, dammit)

I didn't get to #2 and #3, as they would be a massive pain without taking off the intake manifold, and I suspect that I will be removing the intake (again) soon enough as it is...

When I put my hand over the TB while cranking, I felt a light suction (okay, that's good), then when the *chiff* happened, I felt a much stronger puff of air come out the intake... Damn! Valve/head issues?!

I did a valve job on these heads a couple years ago, and they've been sitting on the engine ever since. When I put on the timing belt, I was very careful to get it timed correctly and I checked it multiple times. I put a long screwdriver in each spark plug hole to see when the cylinder was at TDC, and watched the cams as I rotated the crank. Sure enough, I saw the screwdriver come up to TDC, then the intake valve open while the screwdriver dropped, then the intake valve closed, then the screwdriver came up, then went down. Then after BDC, the exhaust valve opened and the screwdriver came back up, repeat. I did this meticulously for each cylinder and it all checked out. I know I lined up the timing mark correctly too.

Is it even possible that my valve timing is correct and I'd still be getting puffs of air out of the intake? And my compression numbers... Not good! Bad valves maybe? Rings (god, I hope not...)?

EDIT: This 3.2L engine was a junkyard special, sitting on a shelf when I got it, so I can't confirm that it was running when pulled, although the yard said it was. I asked what kind of reassurance I had that it was good, they told me they had a 30-day return policy! Oh yeah, great, so I'm going to put this engine in the car in <30 days, then pull it out and take it back if it had problems?! Anyway, that was in 2007, so yeah, I think the 30 days has elapsed (also it was about 1100 miles away from me now)...

Any suggestions?!

 

[Racer X]

You were going to do a valve job, anyway...

Bent or improperly seated valves is my guess.

 

[jonheese]

You were going to do a valve job, anyway...

Ummm.... I was? Then why did I do it the first time?

Just in case I wasn't clear, the last valve job was done on this engine while it was on the stand, and I've just now gotten around to finishing up the project of getting it running. It's never run since I did the valve job. I didn't check compression at the time (hard to turn it over fast enough to make compression when it's on a stand), but I did a leakdown test and everything seemed fine.

Bent or improperly seated valves is my guess.

I have no reason to believe that they're bent (how?), but improperly seated makes sense. What is the cause and fix for that? Do I have to pull the valves to inspect/replace etc.?

I was hoping to have this done by the Convention, but that's looking less and less likely, as I only have 4-8 hours to spend on this a week...

On the bright side, I ran the codes once more, and this time I got three more:

528 - Clutch switch (CS) failure
157 - Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor - signal voltage is too low
214 - Cylinder Identification (CID) sensor - circuit failure

Aha! I forgot to plug in the CID sensor when I did the engine harness swap! Plugged it back in, and technically it started! I had to nurse the throttle to keep it running, so I know it's not running on all 6, but it is technically progress!

The 528 (CS failure) I know about-- I had to bypass the clutch switch with a jumper because it failed on me. The 157 (MAF voltage too low) I have no idea about, but I am running a MkVIII MAF right now, which I had planned on tuning for with the TwEECer RT. Is this code normal for an un-tuned MkVIII MAF?

So yeah, what say you all on next steps? Remove the intake and compression test #2 and #3? Pull the valve covers and check my valves? Pull the heads and get them re-done? Will I need a new head gasket and head bolts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jonheese]

Okay, I did a leakdown test on #4, #5, and #6 (because they're so easy to do with the intake still on), and got surprising results:

#4 - 50%
#5 - 50%
#6 - 30%

It's possible that I wasn't quite at compression TDC for these readings, but I think I did a pretty good job and never saw the readings get any lower (i.e. any tighter). I was expecting less leakdown for cylinders that showed 165+ psi in compression tests...

I tried to stethoscope where the air was hissing, and I think it was the exhaust valves on all three, although it was much louder on #5 than #4 and #6.

And now that I think about it, my Harbor Freight leakdown tester may not be very accurate-- maybe I should just go by the loudness/frequency of the hissing air? If I do that, I get exactly what I expected: lots of leakdown in #5, very little in #4 and #6.

I'm thinking it may be time to pull these heads... What do you all say?

 

[Racer X]

Sorry, I missed you doing the valve job the first time.

That said, if you're getting compression at the throttle body, there are only a few things that can cause this:
- Bent or improperly seated valves.
- Incredible amounts of blow by at the rings.
- Valve train WAAAAAY out of time.

Are the camshafts timed corectly? Did you ever remove the chain sprockets from the intake cams and reattach them?

Also, when you did the valve job, did you lap them at all in their respective seats? Or did a machine shop do the work for you? Is the valve lash set properly?

I'm really trying to figure out how enough air is escaping the combustion chamber that the intake plenum is pressurizing...

 

[jonheese]

Okay, apparently I've missed including enough details where we're not on the same page anymore...

The pressurization of the intake is no longer happening (as near as I can tell-- I don't hear any odd puffs/chiffs while the engine is cranking/running), but it is running rough and it won't stay running without me opening the throttle. I figure it's not running on all 6, or they're not pulling their own weight due to compression loss/something else.

Also, after thinking about the leakdown tests some more, I went out and re-did them, and after a little trial and error getting the gauges dialed in and ensuring that I'm on the compression stroke, I'm now getting much more regular results:

#4 - 30%
#5 - 30-35%
#6 - 30%

Again, I haven't checked the back cylinders yet, but I am surprised that the fronts are so even in leakdown when they are so uneven in compression.

Are the camshafts timed corectly? Did you ever remove the chain sprockets from the intake cams and reattach them?

Also, when you did the valve job, did you lap them at all in their respective seats? Or did a machine shop do the work for you? Is the valve lash set properly?

I did the valve job myself, following the Ford SHO Engine Book. I pulled the valve covers, pulled the exhaust cams, swapped in 3.0L cams, then set the valve lash and replaced a handful of shims that were out of spec. I torqued the caps down to the Ford spec, and used the Ford cam tool to make sure the cams were timed correctly to each other via the cam timing chain. I was very careful to make sure that everything was timed properly 100%, all the way down to the timing belt while rotating the crank by hand.

I didn't pull the valves at all or mess with the valve seats. I didn't think I wanted to get that deep into the engine, and it held air well during the leakdown test I did right after buying it.

EDIT: Also, I mentioned it above, but in case you missed it, the engine will now start and run (after plugging the cam sensor back in, duh!), so I know it's not too far out of time...