High idle and idle in motion . Not TPS, IAC. Need some ideas

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U_SHO?

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I'm still stuck with this high idle business. :(

Another thing worth mentioning is that high idle is particularly bad when backing up. In reverse, the car revs up to 2000 rpms automatically, every time. Is my intake shifting and sucking extra air when the engine moves on the mounts?

I scheduled next week to take a car to the shop and test intake for leaks with the smoke machine... Gotta be the vacuum leak somewhere
 

TT SHO PROJECT

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i dissagree.... i am a mustang owner... i have done the tps mod a couple times my self.. and have seen huge improvements in driveability and idle quality its works perfectly for me... haynes manual even tells you how to adjust the tps!!!(why would it tell you how to adjust it if it doesnt matter what u adjust it too tell me that?) and what the "stock" settings should be... so yes it does make a diffrence.. try it for your self and see the trueth.

just my 2 cents.. im sick of ppl saying this mod doesnt work... thats a bunch of bs! its works great for me for as long as iv known about it!..

Axianator said:
I understand that Ted was the one who instructed you to adjust your TPS voltage. However, I still stand by my original post - if Ted (or anyone else) is encouraging you to adjust your TPS voltage or telling you that your TPS voltage "must be set as close to 1.0v as possible", then that person is woefully misinformed and is spreading a popular misconception. All EEC-IV computers, including the EEC-IV-equipped '89-'95 V6 SHO, use relative TP as the basis for their TP-based calculations, which may be explained thusly:

Relative TP = 'Absolute TP' - 'Closed Throttle TP'

where:

'Absolute TP' = Current absolute TP voltage (0-5v) as reported by the TPS
'Closed Throttle TP' = Last closed throttle TP voltage captured by the EEC from the TPS. On some models, this value is captured only at startup, while on other models, it is constantly being captured by the EEC in the background.

Example:

Say your absolute TP voltage at WOT is 4.5v and your closed throttle voltage reads the standard 0.74v. Subtract the two and you end up with a relative TP voltage of 3.76v. Now, if you adjust your TPS so that your closed throttle voltage reads around 1.0v, then your WOT voltage will automatically read higher by the same amount, effectively cancelling out the TPS adjustments you just made:

Old closed throttle voltage = 0.74v
New closed throttle voltage = 1.0v
Difference after adjustment = 0.26v

Old WOT voltage = 4.5v (before adjustment)
New WOT voltage = 4.76v (after adjustment)

As you can see, there is no need to adjust the TPS for a "higher" voltage reading on any EEC-IV-equipped vehicle since these adjustments will not make any difference. Yes, boys and girls, you heard correctly - the famed "TPS modification" that has long been touted by many Mustang owners is nothing but a hoax. The only time you should adjust your TPS is if you have a fully-functional sensor that is reading below the minimum range that the EEC expects to see when capturing the 'Closed Throttle TP' value above. Corporate range values for closed throttle TP are usually 0.45-1.2v, although actual values will vary between vehicle computer calibrations.

As I have shown with my comments above, there is no mystery surrounding the "ideal" closed throttle TPS voltage. ;)

Although I certainly have the utmost respect for Ted's prior tuning knowledge and experience, and while I would not presume to speak for him myself, I will say that Ted is not the only person who understands EEC theory and operation, nor is he the only person who can explain these particular operational facets of the V6 SHO EEC. ;)

Engine idle speed is governed completely by the EEC, which uses spark advance, fuel delivery, and the ISC assembly to control engine idle speed for specific situations. Unless you are ingesting large amounts of unmetered air into your intake through a vacuum leak, you should see the same idle speed at all times once the EEC has run through it's initial startup logic.

I'm still with Scott and RStalvey on this - pull the LPM first, then check again for leaks.
 
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SHOZ123

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Once you do some data logging you will see that it makes no difference.
 

TT SHO PROJECT

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SHOZ123 said:
Once you do some data logging you will see that it makes no difference.
ok then explain to me why my stang wouldnt idle worth crap... surging up and down with a mind of its own till i did the "tps mod" and adjusted the volts up.... it stoped surging and had hella throttle responce... not to mension theres a tps piggy back type mod you can buy that pretty much does the same thing.. if i find a link to the part ill edit this post and post the link...
 

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SHOZ123 said:
Well I guess your 'stang was pretty messed up then, eh?
nope... it didnt like the bigger injectors and pro m 75mm maf.. and blower, big cam ect ect.... no tune at all. after the tps mod, the car ran perfectly.
 
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Axianator

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U_SHO? said:
I saw in alldata that there is a procedure to reset factory set idle as well. Has anybody done that successfully?
Yep - see this thread for more info and banter surrounding the procedure:

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=10161

U_SHO? said:
That computer is also L0S like the one I have in now, so the car should run the same with the same computer right?
Yep, assuming that everything is kosher between the two units. There's always the small possibility that a damaged or fried driver, transistor or other electrical component on the mainboard could lead to the problems you've been experiencing.

U_SHO? said:
I also think my tach show little higher than in the old car and I wonder how acurrate those things are. G-tech showed RPMs in tune with the tach in my old car, but in the new one it is a little off (tach shows more than g-tech).
The only easy way of verifying your actual engine speed (outside of a calibrated, third-party tachometer) would be to utilize some sort of real-time, J3-based data logging device like the TwEECer or SnEEC.

U_SHO? said:
Is it possible that ECU is trying to compensate for this air leak and runs richer? Would that explain big idle fluctuations after A/C kicks in and not so smooth 1500-2500 rpm range?
Once the indicated coolant temperature has reached a stabilized, preset temperature, then the EEC should enter closed loop (or attempt to cycle around a 14.64:1 AFR) at warm idle and begin learning/making adaptive corrections.

U_SHO? said:
Has anyone have success resetting idle by adjusting throttle screw? Will this affect both curb and fast idle?
Unfortunately, the throttle butterfly screw adjustment will only help if your throttle butterfly is not completely closing within the bore against the stop (as noted by Paul above). It should also be noted that the throttle screw adjustment is not usually recommended for idle adjustment and should only be utilized when all other diagnostic avenues have been explored.

U SHO? said:
Is it possible to install CPS in a way to advance the timing a bit?
Negatory. ;)

U_SHO? said:
Advancing the base timing would effectively change the timing all over the rpm band, right?
Yes, and although Ted usually makes his timing adjustments and power gains this way (by adding a specific amount of global advance to the overall timing mixture), one cannot achieve this same type of timing adjustment through the cam or crank position sensors alone.

U_SHO? said:
How can I check the base timing on this motor?
Connect a timing light, pull the SPOUT connector (to ensure 10 degrees BTDC at idle) and go to town. ;)

U_SHO? said:
Another thing worth mentioning is that high idle is particularly bad when backing up. In reverse, the car revs up to 2000 rpms automatically, every time. Is my intake shifting and sucking extra air when the engine moves on the mounts?
Although a bad motor mount and certainly a vacuum leak can cause the problems that you're seeing, I previously forgot to ask - have you checked and/or replaced your VSS recently? Despite the popular misconception, the VSS is used to control idle speed on all V6 SHOs, both MTX and ATX. I would verify that you have proper connection at the VSS itself and then double-check your cruise control operation during one of your high idle episodes. I would also go back and verify that the J3 edge card connector (where your LPM plugs into the computer) is completely free of any residual oxidation, gunk and other material, even if the LPM is not currently on the car.

If neither of these areas prove the be the culprit, then it's very likely that we are still dealing with a leak somewhere.

TT SHO PROJECT said:
i dissagree.... i am a mustang owner... i have done the tps mod a couple times my self.. and have seen huge improvements in driveability and idle quality its works perfectly for me...
You can disagree with me all you want. That still will not change the fact that the famed "TPS modification" does nothing for any EEC-IV- or EEC-V-equipped vehicle when the closed throttle TPS voltage is already within the expected, specified range.

TT SHO PROJECT said:
haynes manual even tells you how to adjust the tps!!!(why would it tell you how to adjust it if it doesnt matter what u adjust it too tell me that?) and what the "stock" settings should be...
I think you're getting two separate issues confused here. As I noted in my previous reply, the EEC expects to see the TPS voltage within a certain range (or around 0.45v-1.2v, depending on vehicle computer calibration) when it is in a closed throttle state. If your closed throttle TPS voltage falls outside of the expected range, then you could experience any number of driveability issues, such as a rough and/or excessively high idle, decreased performance and altered shifting patterns on automatic-based vehicles. In this case, the TPS voltage adjustment could prove beneficial. However, once your TPS has been adjusted and the closed throttle voltage falls within the expected voltage range, there are no further adjustments to be had. In other words, you could adjust your closed throttle TPS voltage all day long and, so long as it stayed within the expected voltage range given above, it would make absolutely no difference.

TT SHO PROJECT said:
just my 2 cents.. im sick of ppl saying this mod doesnt work... thats a bunch of bs! its works great for me for as long as iv known about it!..
The only BS here is in believing that this modfication actually produces any performance enhancement, which it does not. As I noted above, the only possible benefit one would receive from performing the original "Mustang" TPS modification would be a restoration in proper, factory-like idle quality. If you were experiencing poor idle quality or driveability before you performed the modification, it's likely because your closed throttle TPS voltage was out-of-range to begin with and needed to be adjusted. You will realize absolutely zero performance benefit from adjusting the TPS once it's closed throttle voltage is within the expected voltage range.

TT SHO PROJECT said:
its all ford either way... ford tps... ford eec computer... all work the same.
While it is true that the factory engineers utilized many of the same core strategies across various vehicle computer programs, not all of these programs shared the same logic when using the same type of sensor, solenoid or actuator. ;)

That said, though, and speaking from my intimate knowledge of the Ford EEC system, I can safely attest to the fact that the factory powertrain engineers have utilized the same relative TP strategy (posted above) since the advent of the GU strategy which governs the '89-'93 5.0L Mustang computer programs. This same strategy was also carried over into other '89-'95 EEC-IV calibrations (such as those used on the '89-'95 V6 SHO) and continues to live on today in the newer '96-up EEC-V calibrations.

TT SHO PROJECT said:
nope... it didnt like the bigger injectors and pro m 75mm maf.. and blower, big cam ect ect.... no tune at all. after the tps mod, the car ran perfectly.
If your Mustang truly ran "perfectly" after installing those modifications without any EEC reprogramming, then you are an exception to the rule. I also submit that if the TPS adjustment improved your driveability, your sensor was likely out-of-range to begin with.
 

U_SHO?

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Adam, great post. Thanks for still sticking with me on this one and answering bunch of the unanswered questions.

The link on idle reset is not what I was asking, I was familiar with the reset procedure but wonder if you can trick the PCM into lowering idle speed?

Although a bad motor mount and certainly a vacuum leak can cause the problems that you're seeing, I previously forgot to ask - have you checked and/or replaced your VSS recently? Despite the popular misconception, the VSS is used to control idle speed on all V6 SHOs, both MTX and ATX. I would verify that you have proper connection at the VSS itself and then double-check your cruise control operation during one of your high idle episodes. I would also go back and verify that the J3 edge card connector (where your LPM plugs into the computer) is completely free of any residual oxidation, gunk and other material, even if the LPM is not currently on the car.

If neither of these areas prove the be the culprit, then it's very likely that we are still dealing with a leak somewhere.

VSS: This is still OEM part. Tested cruise this morning with high idle episode and it works 100% ok. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that faulty VSS would throw CEL and a code that my computer would show when pulling codes?
Can I do anyhing to check VSS for proper operation? Is the connector easy to find on MTX? I read that I should follow speedo cable shaft? Then what, reconnect it or clean the pins on the connector? I assume it works ok, because how would the cruise work and IAC raise the idle when in motion? And why is it related to high idle when in reverse?

LPM connectors are clean, I verified all that when I put everything stock last month. I will check timing this weekend then.

Thanks again
 
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TT SHO PROJECT

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Axianator said:
Yep - see this thread for more info and banter surrounding the procedure:

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=10161

Yep, assuming that everything is kosher between the two units. There's always the small possibility that a damaged or fried driver, transistor or other electrical component on the mainboard could lead to the problems you've been experiencing.

The only easy way of verifying your actual engine speed (outside of a calibrated, third-party tachometer) would be to utilize some sort of real-time, J3-based data logging device like the TwEECer or SnEEC.

Once the indicated coolant temperature has reached a stabilized, preset temperature, then the EEC should enter closed loop (or attempt to cycle around a 14.64:1 AFR) at warm idle and begin learning/making adaptive corrections.

Unfortunately, the throttle butterfly screw adjustment will only help if your throttle butterfly is not completely closing within the bore against the stop (as noted by Paul above). It should also be noted that the throttle screw adjustment is not usually recommended for idle adjustment and should only be utilized when all other diagnostic avenues have been explored.

Negatory. ;)

Yes, and although Ted usually makes his timing adjustments and power gains this way (by adding a specific amount of global advance to the overall timing mixture), one cannot achieve this same type of timing adjustment through the cam or crank position sensors alone.

Connect a timing light, pull the SPOUT connector (to ensure 10 degrees BTDC at idle) and go to town. ;)

Although a bad motor mount and certainly a vacuum leak can cause the problems that you're seeing, I previously forgot to ask - have you checked and/or replaced your VSS recently? Despite the popular misconception, the VSS is used to control idle speed on all V6 SHOs, both MTX and ATX. I would verify that you have proper connection at the VSS itself and then double-check your cruise control operation during one of your high idle episodes. I would also go back and verify that the J3 edge card connector (where your LPM plugs into the computer) is completely free of any residual oxidation, gunk and other material, even if the LPM is not currently on the car.

If neither of these areas prove the be the culprit, then it's very likely that we are still dealing with a leak somewhere.

You can disagree with me all you want. That still will not change the fact that the famed "TPS modification" does nothing for any EEC-IV- or EEC-V-equipped vehicle when the closed throttle TPS voltage is already within the expected, specified range.

I think you're getting two separate issues confused here. As I noted in my previous reply, the EEC expects to see the TPS voltage within a certain range (or around 0.45v-1.2v, depending on vehicle computer calibration) when it is in a closed throttle state. If your closed throttle TPS voltage falls outside of the expected range, then you could experience any number of driveability issues, such as a rough and/or excessively high idle, decreased performance and altered shifting patterns on automatic-based vehicles. In this case, the TPS voltage adjustment could prove beneficial. However, once your TPS has been adjusted and the closed throttle voltage falls within the expected voltage range, there are no further adjustments to be had. In other words, you could adjust your closed throttle TPS voltage all day long and, so long as it stayed within the expected voltage range given above, it would make absolutely no difference.

The only BS here is in believing that this modfication actually produces any performance enhancement, which it does not. As I noted above, the only possible benefit one would receive from performing the original "Mustang" TPS modification would be a restoration in proper, factory-like idle quality. If you were experiencing poor idle quality or driveability before you performed the modification, it's likely because your closed throttle TPS voltage was out-of-range to begin with and needed to be adjusted. You will realize absolutely zero performance benefit from adjusting the TPS once it's closed throttle voltage is within the expected voltage range.

While it is true that the factory engineers utilized many of the same core strategies across various vehicle computer programs, not all of these programs shared the same logic when using the same type of sensor, solenoid or actuator. ;)

That said, though, and speaking from my intimate knowledge of the Ford EEC system, I can safely attest to the fact that the factory powertrain engineers have utilized the same relative TP strategy (posted above) since the advent of the GU strategy which governs the '89-'93 5.0L Mustang computer programs. This same strategy was also carried over into other '89-'95 EEC-IV calibrations (such as those used on the '89-'95 V6 SHO) and continues to live on today in the newer '96-up EEC-V calibrations.

If your Mustang truly ran "perfectly" after installing those modifications without any EEC reprogramming, then you are an exception to the rule. I also submit that if the TPS adjustment improved your driveability, your sensor was likely out-of-range to begin with.
holy **** on the huge post but props hehe... yeah i know theres no hp to be gained by this mod but it helps in the overall driveability of the car... idle... throttle responce... ect ect.... as far as i recall the tps also effects the timeing of the car.. but quote me if im wrong thats just what i remember... :type:
 

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Update: Last night strange thing happened again. I checked on the VSS connector (I believe that was it, the thingy around the lower speedo cable with wires in it?) and car ran ok on the trip to the store. However, on the way back, idle in motion went up to 2k rpms and the worst of all, as I was pulling into my garage, I came to a dead stop waiting for the garage door to open with my foot on the brake, but the IDLE STAYED at 2000rpms. It was stuck there until I let go of the break pedal! Then dropped to 1000 rpms immediately? Vacuum leak, VSS, what the heck is it?
 
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