Gen 1 Motors and Manual Transmissions

[drmayf]

A few days ago I introduced my self on the intro forum and started a discussion on the use of a gen 1 3 liter SHO motor for my land speed racing activities. I also posted on this forum about issues and problems and asked for sources of performance hardware. I rec solid answers from everyone! Thanks!

Now, I need to know a few other things.

One is what kind of specs does the gen 1, 3 liter have for the various years it was used? I mean, is one year motor better than any others for reliability, power, etc.

And then where is the best place to purchase a used motor and manual trans to begin with. I live near Las Vegas and hence SoCal by default and have no issues with driving to LA to get a set up. Because I will be starting from dead scratch (if I decide to go this way!) I would need the motor, wiring harness, EEC or ECU all the sensors and effectors, trans and all the stuff that goes with it. Is there a specific salvage location where such might be obtained without approaching the value of the national debt?

Also, what else should be considered when snagging a package deal like that? What is an acceptable level of miles on a motor. Being gen 1 I suspect that most will have quite a few miles on them. I will need a motor with few miles and near stock bores to stay within engine class size. A wear amount of no more than 0.005 should be acceptable however.

And finally, for this post, which EEC or ECU is the best one to use? Does the automatic trans one carry a different catch code than the one for a manual trans? I suspect yes, but gotta ask. Which is better to tune with. I use a Tweecer and Clint Garrity's BE and EA regular as clock work. I also live on EECTuner.org as well. What oddities are there for the EEC or tuning that I might run into when seeking parts when the time comes.

I guess that's about it for now. Headed out at 5 am tomorrow morning for the Salt! So no hurry on answers or replies: too busy to read them until I get back.

Many many thanks way up in advance!

drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

 

[kevinspann]

For the 3.0 I don't think year will matter for you, they're all pretty much the same from 89-95. There is some talk of the 93-95 3.0s as having slightly more wall thickness, but you aren't overboring the engine anyways.

The biggest different in those years is that the California cars have EGR, but all you need in a non EGR intake (or at least the rear half) and a non EGR rear manifold.

There are some engine wiring harness differences depending on the year, but nothing really significant, mainly how they interface with the body harness.

You don't really want the automatic ECU, even though you may be able to edit it with the Tweecer (not sure), it has the EGR and trans functions in it. The X2J used in 92-95 cars is considered to be the "best" but really any of the manual trans computers will be fine, there are probably more X2J tuned cars out there. If you bought a gen 1 SHO for parts (89-91) the later ECU will swap in, so no worries.


The BEST way to get all you need is to find a parts car for cheap, that is all there. A running one is even better. I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to find one that needs a clutch or a transmission, but is still in running condition for < $1000.

 

[shomuchfaster89]

The only part of this I can speak to is the parts car/motor. I agree with Kevin that getting the motor from a sho that needs to be revived is likely your best alternative, though i hate to see a sho scrapped. :cry:

I've yet to introduce myself on here since I don't yet have a sho and have been looking literally across the whole country for a good one. But I may be able to help here.

This is one I was considering, as the price seems fair, but I really didn't want one w/a salvage title, and it may need a little bit of maintenance to be running strong. Whatever car I get will need to make it home, which is potentially a 2k mile drive.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/3991281170.html

Paint is rough and peeling, and interior is a little rough, but you don't need those, so the price seems fair if the miles haven't rolled over. Sounds like it may also need valve cover gaskets.
That may be worth the trek for you if there's nothing close-by. Not sure.

Keep us posted.

 

[Airborne]

The only part of this I can speak to is the parts car/motor. I agree with Kevin that getting the motor from a sho that needs to be revived is likely your best alternative, though i hate to see a sho scrapped. :cry:

I've yet to introduce myself on here since I don't yet have a sho and have been looking literally across the whole country for a good one. But I may be able to help here.

This is one I was considering, as the price seems fair, but I really didn't want one w/a salvage title, and it may need a little bit of maintenance to be running strong. Whatever car I get will need to make it home, which is potentially a 2k mile drive.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/3991281170.html

Paint is rough and peeling, and interior is a little rough, but you don't need those, so the price seems fair if the miles haven't rolled over. Sounds like it may also need valve cover gaskets.
That may be worth the trek for you if there's nothing close-by. Not sure.

Keep us posted.

I was looking for a motor and tranny for a swap and looked at that car.
Stay away from that car! I will never make it accross town, so it sure as **** won't make it cross contry. The salvage title is the least of your worries. I has been kept running (barely) by some kid with duct tape silcone sealer and zip ties. The engine wiring harness is hacked up amd unable to read codes. It runs way lean and way hot and has a head gasket leak(serious misfire, bubbles and exhaust in the overflow tank) and doesnt shift right (it is the tranny, not the shifter). And on top of it all, I have never seen tires that dryrotted outside of a junkyard

 

[shomuchfaster89]

I was looking for a motor and tranny for a swap and looked at that car.
Stay away from that car! I will never make it across town, so it sure as **** won't make it cross country. The salvage title is the least of your worries. I has been kept running (barely) by some kid with duct tape silicone sealer and zip ties. The engine wiring harness is hacked up and unable to read codes. It runs way lean and way hot and has a head gasket leak(serious misfire, bubbles and exhaust in the overflow tank) and doesn't shift right (it is the tranny, not the shifter). And on top of it all, I have never seen tires that dry rotted outside of a junkyard

yikes. good to know. my fault for the bad lead. Yea I didn't consider it cause anything that has any problems at all is only going to amplify, especially on a long trip home.
Having never seen it in person though, I didn't know about the harness or the running hot issues. Oops. Good catch.

Regardless, I'm still looking for the right one.

 

[drmayf]

For the 3.0 I don't think year will matter for you, they're all pretty much the same from 89-95. There is some talk of the 93-95 3.0s as having slightly more wall thickness, but you aren't overboring the engine anyways.

The biggest different in those years is that the California cars have EGR, but all you need in a non EGR intake (or at least the rear half) and a non EGR rear manifold.

There are some engine wiring harness differences depending on the year, but nothing really significant, mainly how they interface with the body harness.

You don't really want the automatic ECU, even though you may be able to edit it with the Tweecer (not sure), it has the EGR and trans functions in it. The X2J used in 92-95 cars is considered to be the "best" but really any of the manual trans computers will be fine, there are probably more X2J tuned cars out there. If you bought a gen 1 SHO for parts (89-91) the later ECU will swap in, so no worries.


The BEST way to get all you need is to find a parts car for cheap, that is all there. A running one is even better. I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to find one that needs a clutch or a transmission, but is still in running condition for < $1000.

Hey, Many thanks for this reply and to the other guys who also responded as well! I appreciate the new knowledge. Ok, so an X2J EEC is preferred over others, and a parts car, one than runs, has good trans and the rest junk is a good way to go. Something maybe around a grand and with a good title or salvage title will work. Ok, off I go looking!

Again, many thanks!

mayf

 

[Phoenix]

Another thing , these engines can rack up the miles without making any wear in the cylinders , unlike lets say a 302.

Things to know:

The heads never warps , the head gaskets never go bad , the block and heads never cracks, the crank never snaps , the main bearings never go bad . If you plan on high HP , these engines only needs a fresh set of gaskets and rod bearings (usually we dont measure anything , slap on the bearings and go). If you want to get **** , a VERY light hone with hasting rings will restore the compression and avoid blue smoke (sometimes they do smoke in beat-up cases). Crank is forged. Rods never warps for no reason.

When I say never , it means it CAN happen but you will probably never see that happening. In some cases it did happen , but its ultra rare.

The ****** weapon for these engines is spun rod bearings, then it creates a hole in the block.

For the MTX

3rd gear can strip (yes the shaft will loose its teeth) if you have a real high power engine (350+hp) and pushing 3rd.

The diff , these cotter pins holding the diff pins can snap and the diff pins will go out in a bang , creating a hole in the tranny. This can happen after a burnout or by just cruising on the highway. This can be solved by welding a ring around the pins or by changing the diff with a Quaife or a Wavetrac , which is like a LSD basicly. But it will run you 1000-1500$. But it will get all the traction needed though , much better then a open diff.

 

[kevinspann]

drmayf are you using the SHO trans? I was under the impression it was RWD?

If that's the case, you don't even need a car with a good trans in it...

 

[drmayf]

Another thing , these engines can rack up the miles without making any wear in the cylinders , unlike lets say a 302.

Things to know:

The heads never warps , the head gaskets never go bad , the block and heads never cracks, the crank never snaps , the main bearings never go bad . If you plan on high HP , these engines only needs a fresh set of gaskets and rod bearings (usually we dont measure anything , slap on the bearings and go). If you want to get **** , a VERY light hone with hasting rings will restore the compression and avoid blue smoke (sometimes they do smoke in beat-up cases). Crank is forged. Rods never warps for no reason.

When I say never , it means it CAN happen but you will probably never see that happening. In some cases it did happen , but its ultra rare.

The ****** weapon for these engines is spun rod bearings, then it creates a hole in the block.

For the MTX

3rd gear can strip (yes the shaft will loose its teeth) if you have a real high power engine (350+hp) and pushing 3rd.

The diff , these cotter pins holding the diff pins can snap and the diff pins will go out in a bang , creating a hole in the tranny. This can happen after a burnout or by just cruising on the highway. This can be solved by welding a ring around the pins or by changing the diff with a Quaife or a Wavetrac , which is like a LSD basicly. But it will run you 1000-1500$. But it will get all the traction needed though , much better then a open diff.

Great info! Many thanks for it! Another reply convinced me that I do not want to mess with the front wheel set up as it is chain drive between trans and diff internals. More pain that I want to tackle. Good to heart on the internals of the motor. Sounds very strong indeed and that it can be made to do the job. I am guessing that rod bearing failures are attributed to the "oiling problem" I have heard about. So, I still need to find out more about that aspect. Lunching a mot at full boogie is not my idea of a fun date on the salt. I wish someone who has developed a fix for either oil return or made changes to the oiling system via pumps, larger oil galleries, or what ever would chime in. Does a dry sump system cure the problem? Does a larger OEM style oil pump cure it? Would gun drilling the oil passages to make them larger do it? Or enlarging the drain back holes?

IS there some one who is campaigning a car with a SHO motor in any race series that I might contact? Web site?

The above is for all the readers...

Many thanks again!

mayf

 

[pjtoledo]

Great info! Many thanks for it! Another reply convinced me that I do not want to mess with the front wheel set up as it is chain drive between trans and diff internals. More pain that I want to tackle. Good to heart on the internals of the motor. Sounds very strong indeed and that it can be made to do the job. I am guessing that rod bearing failures are attributed to the "oiling problem" I have heard about. So, I still need to find out more about that aspect. Lunching a mot at full boogie is not my idea of a fun date on the salt. I wish someone who has developed a fix for either oil return or made changes to the oiling system via pumps, larger oil galleries, or what ever would chime in. Does a dry sump system cure the problem? Does a larger OEM style oil pump cure it? Would gun drilling the oil passages to make them larger do it? Or enlarging the drain back holes?

IS there some one who is campaigning a car with a SHO motor in any race series that I might contact? Web site?

The above is for all the readers...

Many thanks again!

mayf

I thought you were using a manual trans?
The chains are only in the autos.
I'm a bit partial to manuals myself.

there was a SHO powered vehicle at the flats a few years ago, don't recall the class or specs. I seem to recall it was carburated.


Perry

 

[Off Road SHO]

There are quite a few SHO motors in the Pikes Peak Hill Climb events. Todd Cook of Tempe has probably been doing it the longest and currently holds many records in that series. I even think he was politely asked to NOT come back so some of the local Colorado boys could have a chance at winning.

I have a T-5 with adaptor for the SHO engine for sale in case you want to go with a T-5. What are you going to be putting this in? What class?

Tom

 

[drmayf]

drmayf are you using the SHO trans? I was under the impression it was RWD?

If that's the case, you don't even need a car with a good trans in it...

Yeah,my goof. But I do want the flywheel, clutch and assorted junk that goes with that. Not for racing but to have for my run stand. And the bell housing is it is a separate unit to which the starter is attached ala typical ford. So a trans might be cool, especially if I get a manual trans car as a parts car. My run stand is a wannabe water cooled disk brake dyno set up that I could use the un modified motor to help me finish its development.

Thanks for letting me clear this up a bit. I was getting ahead of myself, lol...

Thank you sir! I appreciate the reply and question that made me think...difficult on a week end...

mayf

 

[drmayf]

There are quite a few SHO motors in the Pikes Peak Hill Climb events. Todd Cook of Tempe has probably been doing it the longest and currently holds many records in that series. I even think he was politely asked to NOT come back so some of the local Colorado boys could have a chance at winning.

I have a T-5 with adaptor for the SHO engine for sale in case you want to go with a T-5. What are you going to be putting this in? What class?

Tom

Hey! Thanks for the Pikes Peak reference. Does this man have a web site or some way I might contact him? While the salt is purely terrifying for me (not everybody, just me, lol) running at near full out up the mountain has got to be a near ultimate experience.
Interesting on the adapter and T-5. Any work done in the gear box to make it live longer under hp and tq? Heck, is any even needed? How about PM me and let me know how big a heart attack I might have over the price of the two. Or are they already on the parts for sale forum? Being an old fogey on a fixed budget, I have to plan and purchase accordingly.

In the introductory forum section I pretty well described what I am all about but here goes: my car is a 1966 Sunbeam Alpine. With the motor i ran in 2010 the car became the fastest Sunbeam ever on Planet Earth as verified by every Sunbeam organization I know of including the English one. This motor would go into that car, which for this year has a very modified 260 SBF and will in October, if it happens run in E / GMS class. The ShO motor is a natural F motor size which is less than 3.014 liters. E motor now in the car limits out at 260.99 cid. The current motor is an odd beast: I destroked it 0.030 inches and finished honed the bores to 3.910. I had the crank, during destroking, re nitrided and polished and internally balanced, an effort that rivals the amount of money in Ft Knox. I also had all the rod journals ground so that they are in the correct angular locations. Something that Ford in that era, did not do well. I went crazy and used rods from a 347 stroker kit with custom Ross pistons to keep the rod as parallel with the bore to eliminate side loading on the piston which is power loss. I use a solid roller cam, solid lifters, stainless steel roller rockers and AFR heads with big valve springs to handle a 0.608I and 0.614 E lift. Comp cams cam drive system and zero balance damper and flex plate. I use a Performance Automatic AOD (fastest on the planet) for a gear box. Auto was used because I really really hate to take my hands off of the steering wheel, lol...

The SHO motor, should I go that way, would not need all that as the current record is a bit less. While drag goes up as the square of the speed in ft / second Hp goes up as the cube of speed with a constant involved....Even a 10 mph difference is a big hp change.

By the way, if any one reading this would like to know more about Land Speed Racing or would like to know about salt related stuff, feel free to contact me off line or any other way! Might take me a while to get to you, but I will respond! Information is useless unless shared so I share...


I any case thanks for the information and let me know about the prices and or where to see something you have posted on the adapter and gear box.

Again, many thanks!

mayf

 

[pjtoledo]

with the SHO V6 being wider than the SBF, how much cutting will the engine bay receive?

There was once a story on Car and Driver TV about the Sunbeams. When Chrysler became involved they of course wanted to yank the Ford and install a 273. Only it didn't fit, so for a while they sold the Sunbeam with a Ford engine in it.



The SHO transaxle has a 2 piece housing. The front is not that big and would suffice for engine stand duty. There should be plenty of "slightly modified" aka: broken housings, laying around.

Perry

 

[drmayf]

with the SHO V6 being wider than the SBF, how much cutting will the engine bay receive?

There was once a story on Car and Driver TV about the Sunbeams. When Chrysler became involved they of course wanted to yank the Ford and install a 273. Only it didn't fit, so for a while they sold the Sunbeam with a Ford engine in it.



The SHO transaxle has a 2 piece housing. The front is not that big and would suffice for engine stand duty. There should be plenty of "slightly modified" aka: broken housings, laying around.

Perry

My Sunbeam is a full on race car with a tube frame, so just about anything will fit. Plus, in the class I run in, Modified Sports, I can actually streamline the front end and stretch the wheelbase to 130 inches. I have resisted that just to keep the Sunbeam recognition factor, but anything beneath the skin can be removed..and has been, lol... I was one considering the Lexis 4.2L 4 cam motor for the E/GMS class I am in this year. Instead I went to something a bit cheaper (NOT!).. That motor wold have fit ok. SHO should be a easy fit in comparison..

If you had to suggest a manual or text for me to get smart on SHO motors and trans axles, what would it be? Is there a really good shop manual?

Oh, regards the Chrysler/Rootes purchase.. Chrysler purchased Rootes for their dealerships in Europe so they could sell Chrysler and Chrysler products. Sunbeams were incidental and yes they did have issues with selling cars with another makers motor in them. I have owned a Sunbeam Tiger since 1967...Ford powered naturally...

many thanks for the reply! I appreciate the information!

mayf

 

[luigisho]

Haven't seen Todd post here with hill climb info in a while, but he owns TCE Performance Products. You can likely reach him through his company website or Facebook page.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/history/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/TCE-Performance-Products/140503749300980

His user name on the board is Todd TCE and you could try a PM or email from his user info page.

 

[waffles]

Another thing , these engines can rack up the miles without making any wear in the cylinders , unlike lets say a 302.

Things to know:

The heads never warps , the head gaskets never go bad , the block and heads never cracks, the crank never snaps , the main bearings never go bad . If you plan on high HP , these engines only needs a fresh set of gaskets and rod bearings (usually we dont measure anything , slap on the bearings and go). If you want to get **** , a VERY light hone with hasting rings will restore the compression and avoid blue smoke (sometimes they do smoke in beat-up cases). Crank is forged. Rods never warps for no reason.

When I say never , it means it CAN happen but you will probably never see that happening. In some cases it did happen , but its ultra rare.

The ****** weapon for these engines is spun rod bearings, then it creates a hole in the block.

For the MTX

3rd gear can strip (yes the shaft will loose its teeth) if you have a real high power engine (350+hp) and pushing 3rd.

The diff , these cotter pins holding the diff pins can snap and the diff pins will go out in a bang , creating a hole in the tranny. This can happen after a burnout or by just cruising on the highway. This can be solved by welding a ring around the pins or by changing the diff with a Quaife or a Wavetrac , which is like a LSD basicly. But it will run you 1000-1500$. But it will get all the traction needed though , much better then a open diff.

I'm no expert, but the machine shop did tell me my heads were warped 8 thou, they said the block looked great, typically the block won't warp at all according to these gentlemen (quality engine). It still wont hurt to blueprint a few things, just for peace of mind, if your schedule allows.

 

[NotSoSlowSHO]

I'm no expert, but the machine shop did tell me my heads were warped 8 thou, they said the block looked great, typically the block won't warp at all according to these gentlemen (quality engine). It still wont hurt to blueprint a few things, just for peace of mind, if your schedule allows.

Why were the heads off?

And when they were removed, were the head bolts removed it in the correct sequence?

In all my years, I have NEVER seen warped SHO heads. Though a severe overheat + incorrect sequence when removing the head bolts might make it possible.