Dry sump

[firebat45]

Picked up a dry sump from ebay so I've been doing a lot of research on installing one.



This is the oil flow for the SHO. I would gut the stock oil pump (remove one/both halves of the gerotor), does anybody know if this will cause a problem? Do I need oil through the pump to lubricate the front main bearing or anything? I don't see a problem in my head but I don't have an engine handy to look at right now.

Secondly, it seems like I could get a remote oil filter adapter (example) and cap off the inlet, and just run the pressure side of the pump into the outlet. This would leave the passageway from the pump to the filter through the block dry. This would also bypass both relief valves, how do I make sure the pressure doesn't get too high? Do I even need to bother with relief valves with the dry sump or are they just to protect the stock oil filter?

FYI more relevant diagrams and info are on page 65,66,67 of the SHO engine book (Which is page 35,36,37 of the pdf, I don't know why it's missing 30 pages).

 

[shomtx95]

i cant believe no one has replied to this

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Seems like a solution in search of a problem?

 

[somedude_001]

Coming Up - RWD

it could be he needs oil plan clearance.

 

[firebat45]

it could be he needs oil plan clearance.

That's a big part of it. Dry sump will give me a lot more room for the steering rack, and my engine is sitting about 1.5-2 inches lower than stock, so now I don't have to worry about busting open the pan on a raised sewer opening or something.

The other part is I want to do something that hasn't been done before, push the boundaries of this engine. RWD was going to be my thing but I was beaten to it.

Seems like a solution in search of a problem?

I think it could have some major benefits even for a somewhat stock or more SHO engine. We all know about the rod bearings and the flickering oil light, dry sump might help keep the engine lubricated. That and the bonus of better ring sealing.

Overkill solution? Sure, but that's what I'm going for.

 

[St Louis SHO]

I think it could have some major benefits even for a somewhat stock or more SHO engine. We all know about the rod bearings and the flickering oil light, dry sump might help keep the engine lubricated.
Overkill solution? Sure, but that's what I'm going for.

Anyone who thinks the rod bearing issue is lubrication is not thinking clearly. Look closely. Its called DETONATION! Jesus...

 

[SuperchargedSHOguy]

it could be he needs oil plan clearance.

This is not a problem for the RWD conversion...
I think it may be a good Idea, I hope you go for it because others will follow if it works out.

 

[gmorrell]

I hope that...
1. You're prepared to spend a $1000 or more on just AN lines and fittings.
2. You need to fabricate a new, shallow oil pan with screens and scavenge fittings.

Unless the pressure stage in your dry sump pump has a relief valve, you're going to need a remote pressure relief valve.

Peterson fluid systems, bottom of the page.
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_acc.html

You're going to need an oil tank, these generally go somewhere else in the car, 'cause even the smallest ones are sort of large.
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/tank_stand.html

I'm not trying to discourage you, but this is no small undertaking, and you do need to know what you're doing. I have friends with purpose-built road race cars, some with 9000 RPM small blocks, and they've spent multiple-$Thousands on dry sump oiling systems, so just be ready for some serious additional expense beyond your eBay pump, and a steep learning curve.

I think you can safely remove both pieces of the geroter from the oil pump, the forward main bearing is oiled from the main oil galley that is drilled through the block on top of the crankshaft. The front main crank seal needs a bit of splash lubrication, but it should be fine.

I think your best bet would be to pressure feed the block at the center of the oil filter boss, you're not going to have a filter at this location anymore, as you'll be doing your filtering in-line, probably after the pressure stage and remote pressure relief valve. Additionally, feeding oil in at this location bypasses the oil pump relief valve. The other relief valve shown in your diagram is the pressure bypass that's built into the oil filter.

You probably should also think about an external air-to-oil cooler, but hey, that's just a few more feet of AN hose and some colorful, expensive AN fittings.

Tell us why you're going to all this trouble.

 

[gmorrell]

Anyone who thinks the rod bearing issue is lubrication is not thinking clearly. Look closely. Its called DETONATION! Jesus...

You have not been paying attention...

 

[SuperchargedSHOguy]

An fittings and lines are not that expensive anymore... For a basic SHO owner, perhaps but as long as you measure exactly how long of a line you need as well as the exact fittings, bargain shopping with Summit or Jegs fittings are considerably cheaper than Earl, Russel, and the other high dollar fittings and lines...they are all the same, only the logos on the fittings differ. I'd like to see a $1000 bill for the lines and fittings, unless someone is doing 5 of these systems.
I have these fittings and lines in my Viper, Typhoon, Supra and SHO and don't have anywhere near $1000 on fuel system, oil system, and water to air intercooler system lines and fittings on all 4 vehicles.

 

[gmorrell]

This is not a problem for the RWD conversion...
I think it may be a good Idea, I hope you go for it because others will follow if it works out.

Yeah, this will be the new Quaife, or the unbreakable transaxle gear set. $3000 dry sump systems on $1500 cars.

 

[SuperchargedSHOguy]

Anyone who thinks the rod bearing issue is lubrication is not thinking clearly. Look closely. Its called DETONATION! Jesus...

I actually agree with that...we are penalized because we have such good head bolts and clamping design to keep the head gaskets from blowing from the detonation...it can't escape by blowing the head gasket so it makes its way south to the rod bearings and such...

To edit my post, I think once we push the envelope further with turbocharger more importantly than superchargers we may see some head gasket failures from the 20+ psi but for the stock and highly modded SHOs, James pinpointed it, the detonation goes right down to our weak point

 

[SuperchargedSHOguy]

Yeah, this will be the new Quaife, or the unbreakable transaxle gear set. $3000 dry sump systems on $1500 cars.

No, there are a couple guys on here that have talked about this but never taken the plunge...Theres a turbo guy here that would do it in FL. It takes someone who loves their SHO a ton to spend that coin, like adding a supercharger kit that costs double to triple the retail value on their SHO

Quaifes are normally worth more than most SHOs they go into, and the people know they will never get that money back, they do it for the enjoyment because they will be keeping their car for the long haul...

 

[gmorrell]

An fittings and lines are not that expensive anymore... For a basic SHO owner, perhaps but as long as you measure exactly how long of a line you need as well as the exact fittings, bargain shopping with Summit or Jegs fittings are considerably cheaper than Earl, Russel, and the other high dollar fittings and lines...they are all the same, only the logos on the fittings differ. I'd like to see a $1000 bill for the lines and fittings, unless someone is doing 5 of these systems.
I have these fittings and lines in my Viper, Typhoon, Supra and SHO and don't have anywhere near $1000 on fuel system, oil system, and water to air intercooler system lines and fittings on all 4 vehicles.

You've not built any -12 dry sump lines have you? Ask some guy who's built a pair of -12 or -14 lines that run the whole length of the car between the dry sump pump and the oil tank. Ask to see receipts. I was stunned when my friend Bob told me the total cost for the dry sump system in his CP Mustang, and this guy isn't afraid of money, he's had two small blocks built by Lozano Brothers in Texas, these are $5-figure motors.

OK, Earls cutter fittings are unmitigated crap, they leak 50% of the time. I have box of Earls AN cutter fittings I will give away just to get them out of my sight.

Some of the inexpensive imported (probably Chinese...) AN fittings I've tried have a nasty tendency to split when installed on the hose. Every time I've tried somebody's inexpensive AN fittings, I get leaks at the cutters, split collars, leaks at poorly designed swivels, all manner of troubles, and I always end up back with Aeroquip compression style AN fittings, probably because I'd hate to lose an oiling system, and possibly an engine, to a failure of a cheap fitting. I've had 100% success with Aeroquip fittings, and to me, that's worth the additional cost. I'm glad you've had success with inexpensive components, but it hasn't worked that way for me.

 

[gmorrell]

I never said "Don't do this, it's stupid." I think it's cool, DO IT! Just be prepared to spend a metric shit-pile of money, and maybe you won't get it perfectly right the first time, that's all.

****, I spent this sort of coin on my SHO back before many of the folks on this forum even knew what a SHO was - been there, done that. I've out-grown the car now, and I got tired of spending 100 hours in the garage for 1 hour on the track, it became a poor ROI for fun. The reason I hang around here now is to help out and offer advice, if you disagree with me, I don't care, it's no skin off my wrinkly old ass, and I won't be offended if you don't take my advice.

If ya'all don't appreciate me being here, just let me know and I'll go away, I have better things to do, really, I do.

It's past my bedtime...

 

[yamahaSHO]

I think I spent nearly $200 for only 4 fittings for my -12AN oil cooler setup (2 - 45*, 1 - 90* and 1 - 180* fitting). Two of the fittings were made specifically to fit the $250 thermostatic oil cooler sandwich, but they work well. Just for my oil cooler setup, I probably have $800 - $1,000 in it, however, I'm *hoping* to make my $5,000 motor last (my last motor spun a bearing because the oil was hot w/ no detonation)... If not, I have another spare built block ready to go

I agree with Gary on the cost for quality fitting and lines as well as adding an external oil cooler. It wouldn't be much benefit to have your main oil supply fail, at ANY given poing, giving you the exact opposite results you were aiming for. I'm sure some lesser fitting would get the job done, then again, they might not. I would be happy for peace of mind... which isn't that what we're really going for here?

I also agree that if you want to do it, do it. I am intetersted to see it done as well. I would LOVE to have a setup like that on my car, but the money and the return I would get out of it has really put a damper on it for me (especially since it's just a street car now... Actually, a red dust collecting garage ornament as I've been told), so I love to see other do it (I really do).

Subscribed.

 

[Lorenr]

Dry Sump Oiling

This is an interesting thread but save your money.

Dry sump oiling systems cost horsepower and are really only used when cornering, handling and ground clearance become major issues. They also help oiling on long races where high RPM is required for long periods. They work well for removing heat under these same extended races.

They are generally a pain and there are better ways to spend your money.

Oil pans are dirt cheap for these motors and I've seen them for as little as $10.
Cut one apart and add sections to your existing pan so that the sump extends all the way across the bottom of the motor. Use trap doors to keep oil around the pick up tube and it might hold 7 quarts.

Don't forget to re drill all your oil passages one letter drill size larger. De burr as necessary.

Probably make a pretty nice pan for $50.00

I also doubt that rod bearing wear is an oiling issue. Detonation I thought was supposed to be controlled by the knock sensor. I think rod bearing wear on these motors is the result of six cylinder harmonics.

 

[firebat45]

I'm well aware of how much AN fittings/hose costs. I've actually found MUCH cheaper ways to go about it, I just don't end up with shiny red/blue fittings and stainless braided hose. Hydraulic supply shops sell JIC fittings for easily 1/4 the price of AN or less, they're the exact same thing, not made out of anodized aluminum.

Example (This was for -6 stuff for my fuel, granted -12 will be a lot more)

Earl's/Russell/Aeroquip 12mm metric to -6 adapter = $9 to $16, depending on the brand.

Nickel plated steel hydraulic shop, exact same fitting = $2.75

****, I even prefer the steel stuff. A bit heavier, but I wont ever have to worry about scratching the fancy anodizing or stripping/damaging the threads.

I've tried the cheaper AN stuff and I wouldn't trust it, it might be fine for one time use but I want to be able to take it apart and put it together without worrying about leaks. The steel fittings are just as good quality as the high end AN stuff, I'm not cheaping out on quality, just looks.

This is not a problem for the RWD conversion...
I think it may be a good Idea, I hope you go for it because others will follow if it works out.

Not a problem for your RWD conversion. Mine is differing from yours on quite a few things. Thanks for the words of encouragement!

If ya'all don't appreciate me being her, just let me know and I'll go away, I have better things to do, really, I do.

Your opinion on things like this is one of the best on the forums, IMO. Not trying to inflate any egos (or insult anyone else) but it would be a real loss if you left.

I've got lots of room for a tank (well, we'll see about that when it gets here). We'll see if the pump has a built in relief valve when it gets here as well. I will have an external cooler as well. Thanks for the advice, I know this is a pretty big task, I'm trying to get as much education on it as I can before bolting stuff on.

Oh, I won't be fabricating a new pan. I'll be modifying the old pan, cutting it as shallow as possible

 

[victorymike18]

Personaly, I'm not a fan of the Aluminum fittings. They're expensive, and I've seen some of them (probably the cheaper ones) start leaking if you have to tighten/loosen them more than one time.

Don't forget to re drill all your oil passages one letter drill size larger. De burr as necessary.

Interesting... Forgive my noobie-ness: What will this accomplish? (I'm figuring a higher volume of oil, but lower pressure?)

 

[SuperchargedSHOguy]

You've not built any -12 dry sump lines have you? Ask some guy who's built a pair of -12 or -14 lines that run the whole length of the car between the dry sump pump and the oil tank.

Viper and Supra both run -12 fuel lines length of car...a tad bit longer than old lines but I must get discounted prices from Summit and have good luck... You can send those Earl fittings my way if you like...Aeroquip is some nice stuff for sure...I have had the opposite luck you have had but with Russel crap leaking constantly as opposed to Earls and have quite a few things I gave away so I didn't end up using them.