Dry sump

[gmail]

I know, I just brought it up because gmail made it sound like a SHO won't detonate, period.

considering it says premium recommended on the gauge i think im still right

until someone on here can prove without a doubt a N/A SHO thats maintained (im talking running good fuel, plugs etc) is DET causing it to make the rod bearings fail why keep trying to say im wrong...

the rod bearing failure in these cars is not related to DET

from everything i had gathered over the time i researched it was related to OILING the system flows more oil then the filter recommended by FORD can with a motor built to such tight specs and a filter media only filtering in most cases 10 microns.

you relise most engine wear happens in several conditions im sure 90% of these rod bearing failure engines see everyday.

i had read before that in most engine when its colder then 180 degree twice the normal engine wear happens.

at temps at or below 140 its 4 times as much engine wear.

metal dirt or any material as small as 2 microns can cause a good amount of engine wear and the tighter the specs on the motor the more wear that can result.

oil that goes way past its life or cheap oil without wear inhibitors etc.

these are just naming some things that cause failures.

im a firm believe the filtering system in these engine is the main problem, the filter not flowing as much as the oiling system and the filter not being able to filter what it should is the biggest cause in my mind of failure.

i also feel the stock idle is a bit low the PSI on most of these engines at idle is 12 psi give or take some.

draw your own conclusions but these motors arent failure due to DET if your lucky maybe a handful of these engine n/a ever see DET.


like i said im not trying to be rude to anyone so i would think this would go a lot smoother if you dont try and act rude to me.

 

[RonPorter]

your SHO had another issue causing detonation.
on a stock or near stock SHO and quality 87 it should not detonate period.

+1

SHOs run fine on 87. If they don't you have issues.

 

[somedude_001]

your SHO had another issue causing detonation.
on a stock or near stock SHO and quality 87 it should not detonate period.

my 94 ATX always did this is reg gas, my 90 SHO is horrible about that on reg gas. I just figured that is what they do. there was a tsb years ago on the vulcan that said audible knock is normal. I just figured that is how they are tuned.

 

[gmail]

my 94 ATX always did this is reg gas, my 90 SHO is horrible about that on reg gas. I just figured that is what they do. there was a tsb years ago on the vulcan that said audible knock is normal. I just figured that is how they are tuned.

none of my SHOs ever liked 87 gas no matter the brand.

the programming for spark and such is done for premium gas but its also setup to be able to adjust for different fuels and or elevations the baro does a lot of calculations to ensure no DET happens.

notice how i said the programming is for premium, the knock sensor is one of the sensors that take 87 or crap gas into consideration.

when running crap gas im sure a datalog would show some DET.
when on premium it dont see any knock under normal conditions.

 

[RonPorter]

This has been discussed for years. Back in '89, Pat Bedard had a C&D article,talking to a SHO engineer. He described that the "Premium Fuel Required" has put in all the literature and the dash before final calibrations were done. He basically said their testing showed it didn't need it, except under certain conditions. I'm sure that article has been posted here before.

The dash was changed in December '88 to read "Premium Fuel Recommended".

I ran all four of my previous Gen 1 & 2s on 87, with no issues. Even with the LPM in the '89. I also ran my '99 on it. the '99 has a higher CR (10.0). My '99 was also the first Gen 3 into the 14s, run on 87 octane.

If your basically stock SHO has problems on 87, you are either getting bad gas, your car has an issue, or you are lugging the engine.

 

[yamahaSHO]

are you serious? your saying detonation causes rod bearing failures??

sorry i just wanted to highlight it im not even gonna respond to it

Yes, detonation CAN cause rod bearing failures. This is widely known past this forum. Detontion is going to "rattle" it's way all they way to the crank and it will be absorbed into the bearings as well.

 

[SHOtime2511]

my 94 ATX always did this is reg gas, my 90 SHO is horrible about that on reg gas. I just figured that is what they do. there was a tsb years ago on the vulcan that said audible knock is normal. I just figured that is how they are tuned.

my Vulcan Taurus i had years ago as my first car had knock at low rpm.
i never cared about it enough to look into it though.

 

[sperold]

When you realize that at 6000 rpm, your pistons are going up & down 100 times a second, I have a hard time (using my day to day experience) imagining what really is happening inside one of our engines.
I can imagine that it gets difficult to get oil to every place that needs it; and I can imagine each charge of incoming explosives, not wanting to wait their turn to do their part of the job. But it doesn't just end there. Someone mentioned harmonics playing a part, and how about maybe it is as simple as the retaining "tang" on the bearing halves is just a tad too small to resist those forces that want to spin it in the direction everything else is moving. Who knows?
I don't think that anyone can say that the other persons idea is rediculous. But I will say the lubrication shortage / failure is the easiest to imagine.

 

[gmail]

Yes, detonation CAN cause rod bearing failures. This is widely known past this forum. Detontion is going to "rattle" it's way all they way to the crank and it will be absorbed into the bearings as well.

dont get me wrong im not saying DET cant cause the failures i know it can im refering to what causes rod bearing failures in our car n/a stock form whatever

 

[shonuffmine]

I think the root of the bearing problem is crank cancer!!!! By the way Gmail i,m with you on the **** side of the discussion, yes detonation can beat a rod bearing but also the mains at the same time!now poor **** and too small of a bearing, thats when ya start spinning n shittin rod bearings . i have seen pistons that look like they have been beat with a ball peen hammer,but the bearings were fine! The bearings had enuff suface area to take the abuse.If anyone is squeezing head gaskets (i have done it twice on both my turbo 2.3s) it is beacause of cylinder pressure,a factor of usually to much boost and ignition lead time for the situation or fuel octane rate .But hey thats just my opinion from my expierence and i,m not shoving it down anyones throat,BTW i have run 87 oct in all 4 of my SHO,s and only had one detonate. A quick tune up n cleaning n all was fine,still my fave daily driver!

 

[DeaconBlue]

The stock rod bearings seem to be the only real weak point mechanically with the SHO V6 engines. I believe that new rod bearing should be part of the 60K mile maintenance schedule on these engines. Yes denotation can lead to rod bearing and piston failures, but the real issue with rod bearing wear and failure is the result of three issues;

First is loading the engine at low RPM's when the oil pressure is low. Keep the revs up and never lug the engine below 2000 RPM – so learn how to down shift.

Second are the oil squirters that siphon off the oil volume and pressure from the rod bearings to keep the underside of the stock cast hypereutectic pistons cool and help lubricate the semi floating wrist pins. When I built the 3.4L stroker engine we eliminated the oil squirters in the rods and lubricated the full floating wrist pins via drain back holes behind the oil control rings in the Wiseco pistons. This boosted warm oil pressure at a 1000 RPM idle by about 10 PSI.

Third is the fact that the stock 52mm rod bearings are very narrow. When I built the 3.4L stroker engine I used 48mm “Honda” rod bearings in the custom built connecting rods. Those 48mm “Honda” rod bearings have more surface area than the stock 52mm rod bearings and we didn’t change the fillet radius on the crank rod journals when we off set ground the crank.

I am also a firm believer that 30W oil is too “thin” for use in the SHO V6 engine – the viscosity at temperature is just too low. Switching to 5W-40 or 10W-40 oil will boost warm oil pressure at idle by 2-3 PSI. If you are running a s/c or using the car at the track in the heat of summer stepping up to 20W-50 oil would also be a very cheap insurance.

 

[gmorrell]

One thing to consider, between DeaconBlue's comments about the con rod piston oil squirters, and the issue with dry sumping an engine, in that when a dry sump system heavily scavenges the crankcase, it greatly reduces the oil vapor available for lubricating the cylinder bores. So now, if you don't have piston squirters, you'd better add them, or you're going to have excess bore wear and scuffed piston skirts.

Then if you dry sump and decide to keep the OEM SHO con rod squirters, do you lose sleep at night worrying about them stealing oil from the rod bearings, or do you throw more $ at the project, get new rods without squirters, then get the block machined for proper oil squirters? Oops, there goes another $Kilobuck.

As earlier, I'm not saying dry sump or don't dry sump, I don't care what anyone does. Just be aware that making a major change like this to any engine is fraught with potentially expensive gotchas' and pitfalls that you may not be aware of until after the damage is done.

 

[DeaconBlue]

Gary is absolutely right here. We determined that with my 3.4L stroker we did not need the oil squirters because we were never going to run either; s/c, turbo or nitrous, so the pistons would not need the added cooling effect of the oil squirters. The Wiseco pistons force feed the full floater wrist pin bushings enough oil though the drain back holes behind the oil control rings.

If you were converting the SHO V6 to a dry sump system and needed the oil squirters to help keep the pistons cool, then you would need to install a proper oil squirter system with a feeder bar and nozzles. Plugging up the holes in the stock connecting rods would be necessary, but most likely you would also be using special (stronger and lighter) aftermarket rods in such an engine and not be using reconditioned factory rods.

Anyway you look at this, the SHO V6 engine that would need/use a dry sump system, would be far from stock and VERY expensive – something I should know a little about since I spent a small fortune on my 3.4L stroker!

 

[jonheese]

This has been discussed for years. Back in '89, Pat Bedard had a C&D article,talking to a SHO engineer. He described that the "Premium Fuel Required" has put in all the literature and the dash before final calibrations were done. He basically said their testing showed it didn't need it, except under certain conditions. I'm sure that article has been posted here before.

Yup, it's been posted a few times here, but I can't seem to find it on C&D's site, so here's the reprint from V8SHO.com:
http://v8sho.com/SHO/Savemoney.htm

Regards,
Jon Heese