Disappointing track day

[steve142857]

Hey guys,
I went to the track today with very good ambitions. I wanted to run low 13s and even believed I could see 12s... 2 weeks ago (see previous thread with video), I ran 13.5 and saw 104+ mph. It was in the 40's F, which helped the engine/turbos, but I had issues with traction... Today, they put glue on the track, so no spinning at all... in fact I felt like it was too sticky. Other factor, the temperature outside (in the afternoon) was in the low 60's with sun and clouds). We had a bit of wind in the face also. Humidity was at around 35-40%.
So, I ran all my runs in the 13.5 sec with trap speed ranging from 102 to best of 105.22mph.
Not bad until there. The problem and reason why I am disappointed is that my car now has HR springs and a mild tune (2 degrees more timing).
That is why I was expecting at least better than last time.
I guess I should try again with same conditions as first time to compare and appreciate the first small mod.
Oh yeah, I also tried two runs in the middle with the car back to stock and ran terrible 14.4 and 14.27!!! at 100mph and 102... So I guess the temperature outside and the glue weren't helping the car today.
Any comments or recommendations to help me explain or improve for next attempt are very welcomed.
Thanks and happy Easter late!
Steve
P.S. Other video to come soon...:thankyou:

 

[SHODWN]

Take the timing back out, and the spring change will affect your traction level. lower center of gravity will cut down your traction loss as the car wont be thrown back taking the weight off the wheels getting a bit of spin.

 

[Billm0066]

Are you able to monitor knock in the engine?

 

[steve142857]

Take the timing back out, and the spring change will affect your traction level. lower center of gravity will cut down your traction loss as the car wont be thrown back taking the weight off the wheels getting a bit of spin.

Hi Kirk, I tried calling you last week a few times, but never been able to reach you... I was interested in x pipe and perhaps a tune... Can I call you this week, what is the best time? Thanks. Also, what do you mean by taking the timing back out? Sorry I speak French lol! Stock it is at 0 let s say and my tuner told me he put 2... I also tried with 2 more than is tune but I suppose that the sensor blocked the over timing...
Thanks and hope to talk to you soon,

Steve

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Go back and read my posts from your 40 deg. day.

These times are not bad. Sticky track doesn't hurt you unless you are severely bogging down. What did you power brake the RPM's to???

Watching your 40 deg videos, I thought you were spinning just about the right amount.

The times you are reporting for mild tune, & no tranny tune are pretty much in the ballpark. If you read Red Candy SHO's runs in Orlando a couple months ago, he turned a mid-13 et with Livernois stage 3, and his friend with the performance package & Livernois stage 4 tune, was around 13.3 as I recall.

I have had 12 recent 1/4 mi times of under 13.2 ET, with outside temp of around 75 & nighttime FL humidity. Remember, I am running W/M, have quite a bit of advance in and am running considerably more boost than you. While my Brick weighs 400-500 lbs more, I also have the 3.16 rear end, and with my smaller much lighter wheels/tires, my adjusted axle ratio is 3.40 versus your 2.73.

Are you referring to Knock Sensor that would block over-timing? Only retards timing if it senses Knock...

Remember ... a couple steps forward... one step back.... etc.... It will get faster, but don't be overly optimistic for big gains. The "sweet spot" is pretty elusive in these things!

These engines are very complex, and tuning is a perpetual learning curve.

 

[SHODWN]

Hi Kirk, I tried calling you last week a few times, but never been able to reach you... I was interested in x pipe and perhaps a tune... Can I call you this week, what is the best time? Thanks. Also, what do you mean by taking the timing back out? Sorry I speak French lol! Stock it is at 0 let s say and my tuner told me he put 2... I also tried with 2 more than is tune but I suppose that the sensor blocked the over timing...
Thanks and hope to talk to you soon,

Steve

Yes, with the NYAS going on I had tons to do.. Anytime is good..

 

[steve142857]

Go back and read my posts from your 40 deg. day.

These times are not bad. Sticky track doesn't hurt you unless you are severely bogging down. What did you power brake the RPM's to???

Watching your 40 deg videos, I thought you were spinning just about the right amount.

The times you are reporting for mild tune, & no tranny tune are pretty much in the ballpark. If you read Red Candy SHO's runs in Orlando a couple months ago, he turned a mid-13 et with Livernois stage 3, and his friend with the performance package & Livernois stage 4 tune, was around 13.3 as I recall.

I have had 12 recent 1/4 mi times of under 13.2 ET, with outside temp of around 75 & nighttime FL humidity. Remember, I am running W/M, have quite a bit of advance in and am running considerably more boost than you. While my Brick weighs 400-500 lbs more, I also have the 3.16 rear end, and with my smaller much lighter wheels/tires, my adjusted axle ratio is 3.40 versus your 2.73.

Are you referring to Knock Sensor that would block over-timing? Only retards timing if it senses Knock...

Remember ... a couple steps forward... one step back.... etc.... It will get faster, but don't be overly optimistic for big gains. The "sweet spot" is pretty elusive in these things!

These engines are very complex, and tuning is a perpetual learning curve.

Hey Bob,

I tried to launch at different RPM, always with T/C off. From 1500 to max. about 2500 (didn't allow higher than that). When I tried my two runs back to stock, the car actually seemed to have a hard time leaving the 60 feet (2.20 instead of 2.5) and I am not familiar with the term bogging down , but probably it was doing when stock even if launched at around 2000 rpm.
I know the times in South are slower due to higher humidity (at least at this time of the year, because it gets pretty hunid here in July...), but I was expecting more since I ran 13.5 stock... But hey, as you say, one step back two steps forward... so I guess I am ready for 2 steps forward now! lol

Thanks for your reply and come on man! Go get that 12's 1/4 mile!!!

Cheers!

Steve

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

On my recent runs, I am doing 60 ft.s under 2. My best was 1.905. They are the key to great runs. Darrell is in the 1.8's for his 60 ft times. I have tried lots of different launch RPM's. If I go over 2200, my front and back wheels spin at different speeds and Boost control shuts everything off , like immediately... Scary! My best times were starting at between 1,800 and 2,000... but that is all relative to track conditions, so may be different at the next track, or any future time.

Bogging down is when the tires bite so much that the RPM's drop slightly, or in come cases a lot.

My real problem is that I also have 2 modded G8 Gt's, one here in FL and the other in Iowa. So... want to run them too.. Their engines are stock, but have headers, tunes, CAI & exhaust mods. G8 down here... turned an 8.332 @ just under 86 mph in 1/8 mi on a cool night about 6 wks ago. (Different track). EB Flex's best time on that track was an 8.47 @ a bit over 83. G8's 60 ft times are never under 2... Need slicks.

 

[SHODWN]

Bob, if the tune is done correctly it will also add timing until it senses knock. You can set it for what ever the tuner likes. I use the aid of the PCM to add timing and cut the rate (shorten the time) it takes to pull timing when it sees knock.

Personally.. the springs and the suspension deflection are whats making his times slower. If the springs are too stiff in the back the car wont shift as much weight to the back giving the front tire more grip thus slowing down the car.

 

[steve142857]

On my recent runs, I am doing 60 ft.s under 2. My best was 1.905. They are the key to great runs. Darrell is in the 1.8's for his 60 ft times. I have tried lots of different launch RPM's. If I go over 2200, my front and back wheels spin at different speeds and Boost control shuts everything off , like immediately... Scary! My best times were starting at between 1,800 and 2,000... but that is all relative to track conditions, so may be different at the next track, or any future time.

Bogging down is when the tires bite so much that the RPM's drop slightly, or in come cases a lot.

My real problem is that I also have 2 modded G8 Gt's, one here in FL and the other in Iowa. So... want to run them too.. Their engines are stock, but have headers, tunes, CAI & exhaust mods. G8 down here... turned an 8.332 @ just under 86 mph in 1/8 mi on a cool night about 6 wks ago. (Different track). EB Flex's best time on that track was an 8.47 @ a bit over 83. G8's 60 ft times are never under 2... Need slicks.

First 60 ft is indeed the key for final ET. My best 60 is 2.04 so far. 1/8 is 8.73 and 1/4 13.53. I noticed that usually, the more the car spins at launch the better the trap speed at the end. So since I was not spinning at all and still had my best 105.22 mph compared to stock 2 weeks ago 104.22 mph but spinning at launch, I guess the little tune did help a bit. I don't want to be annoying with this, but you told me you went back to see the video inside the car doing the 1/4 mile... did you compare it to the 0-100mph on the highway? Both on youtube and I added comments and times... I really hit the 100mph at least 0.5 seconds, if not 1 second faster than at the track... so I believe that the optimal is when the car doesn't spin at all, but doesn't bog down neither. I would appreciate you to comment the 2 videos (if you want to take the time for sure), but I still think that the car is not showing its full potential at the track...
Thanks

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Bob, if the tune is done correctly it will also add timing until it senses knock. You can set it for what ever the tuner likes. I use the aid of the PCM to add timing and cut the rate (shorten the time) it takes to pull timing when it sees knock.

Personally.. the springs and the suspension deflection are whats making his times slower. If the springs are too stiff in the back the car wont shift as much weight to the back giving the front tire more grip thus slowing down the car.

As for the spring issue, what I'm seeing is that even with my H & R suspension on my Brick, my front tires are spinning before the rears start to move. This was observed by a friend who was watching intently, and who has many years of drag racing experience. This happed even though my front tire pressures are lower than rear when making runs. Also the Flex has a longer wheelbase and much shorter overhangs than SHO, so my suspension should have remained flatter in the first place. That's why, even though drive train is essentially the same, there are differences that may require different strategies.

Essentially, these are Front Wheel Drive vehicles, with power diverted to the rear, once there is spinning at the front. That's why when I have RPM's too high at beginning and spin fronts, and rear's can't catch up, that the system shuts down to keep from damaging the drive train. I'm told you can't over-ride that.

The other big negative with Flex, besides weight penalty, is the size of the front. My best MPH is only 104.6 MPH.

 

[Showgun]

Hey Bob,

I tried to launch at different RPM, always with T/C off. From 1500 to max. about 2500 (didn't allow higher than that). When I tried my two runs back to stock, the car actually seemed to have a hard time leaving the 60 feet (2.20 instead of 2.5) and I am not familiar with the term bogging down , but probably it was doing when stock even if launched at around 2000 rpm.
I know the times in South are slower due to higher humidity (at least at this time of the year, because it gets pretty hunid here in July...), but I was expecting more since I ran 13.5 stock... But hey, as you say, one step back two steps forward... so I guess I am ready for 2 steps forward now! lol

Thanks for your reply and come on man! Go get that 12's 1/4 mile!!!

Cheers!

Steve

Try again. You just might realize that 'two steps forward' next time.
G/L and keep us in the loop.

 

[darreli]

Hey Steve....dont be disappointed by that! It's really alot of trial and error with this car so far. That's kinda why I suggested maybe you use a tuner that has some experience with this platform. That being said I understand the going to someone local viewpoint. That's what I did and it's worked out better than I could imagine. The problem is it will take your tuner a little while to figure out the mystery of the Ecoboost PCM. I'm no tuner, but I knnow there is alot to the ECM on these cars.

Kirk....I have to disagree with you a little on the H&R's (however, I am very glad to see you posting in this section again!!!!) I've had my best 60fts with the H&R's being consistently 1.80-1.82. They are a progressive spring so I think the weight transfer part is pretty good in my opinion. It will take some practice to figure out the sweet spot. Dan is always giving me a hard time about leaving. He always says "leave harder!" but I consistently have what I believe are the best 60fts on the forum. He however drove his car with the Stage 2 to a 12.90....I guess thats the difference between being a professional drag racer and a schlub like me!

I've had more than 50 passes in the 12 second range and have had many passes over 109 mph and still have yet to beat Beefcakes 12.75 so I understand disappointing. That being said...track conditions mean ALOT! they can change quickly too...going from good to bad to good in the same day.

It will take a little time my friend, patience is important. Good things will come!

 

[steve142857]

Hey Steve....dont be disappointed by that! It's really alot of trial and error with this car so far. That's kinda why I suggested maybe you use a tuner that has some experience with this platform. That being said I understand the going to someone local viewpoint. That's what I did and it's worked out better than I could imagine. The problem is it will take your tuner a little while to figure out the mystery of the Ecoboost PCM. I'm no tuner, but I knnow there is alot to the ECM on these cars.

Kirk....I have to disagree with you a little on the H&R's (however, I am very glad to see you posting in this section again!!!!) I've had my best 60fts with the H&R's being consistently 1.80-1.82. They are a progressive spring so I think the weight transfer part is pretty good in my opinion. It will take some practice to figure out the sweet spot. Dan is always giving me a hard time about leaving. He always says "leave harder!" but I consistently have what I believe are the best 60fts on the forum. He however drove his car with the Stage 2 to a 12.90....I guess thats the difference between being a professional drag racer and a schlub like me!

I've had more than 50 passes in the 12 second range and have had many passes over 109 mph and still have yet to beat Beefcakes 12.75 so I understand disappointing. That being said...track conditions mean ALOT! they can change quickly too...going from good to bad to good in the same day.

It will take a little time my friend, patience is important. Good things will come!

Thanks guys. I hear all kind of things from different tuners, but none has ever tuned one! They apply general concepts, but as you say, the ecoboost engine offers its own challenges and it is probably harder than just give timing... My tuner told me that he looked at what Livernois does and said : That's it? Is words... But after is small tune, I can reply him back the same lol!
I was wondering if I should order a tune from Nesho and/or Livernois and see what it does, all the rest being stock. The issue that I have is if I order them tunes (I already have the stock tune into the SCT), can they adapt their tunes in the future for different reasons (add of CAI, weather differences etc.).
There is also a debate about the real addition of power from addition of exhaust and CAI... Did any of you try to dyno before and after these additions, or is it just the tune that adds the extra power? That would mean that on a cold night in the 40's, with only HR springs and a stage 4 tune, I could probably see 12's up here too.
So, I guess I am at the stage of... Is it all worth it, but you guys are reassuring me that it was probably just one bad day at the track.
Thanks again all!

Steve

 

[darreli]

I can tell you first hand it's the tune that makes power. The CAI out there and cat-back exhausts don't really make any power. If you search you'll see the dynos pre and post my Corsa install. It did make some power up top. CAI...haven't seen any real power from any of them.

To answer your other question...yes they can be adapted for future upgrades

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Don't forget to consider Torrie McPhail's tunes... "Unleashed Tuning"....

From all the posts here and elsewhere, Torrie & Livernois offer the best "canned"tunes.

Beefcake took Torrie's tune - blackballed him, and then used it with his local Cinci. tuner to improve. The tuner guy supposedly was driving the car much of the time to get it "just right". Supposedly his tune was available for purchase for around $150. but that was a year ago.

I am getting a mid-pipe from Kirk @ NESHO. Since he too has a new SHO, I'm sure he has spent many hours working on tuning it.

Darrel is correct about the CAI & exhaust. I have my own custom CAI which runs very cool. My exhaust is also custom.... 2 rear magnaflows... I love both... Great NOISE Fluff, and Eye Candy!!

I would say that the Red Plastic Turbo Logo I put on my Intake Manifold, probably adds as much HP! NO engine cover or foam DI pump cover for my BRICK!

Lots and lots of trial and error... and just about the time you think it's ready... crappy track conditions.... so,.. back to more trial and error!

LIFE IS GOOD!

 

[beefcake]

Don't forget to consider Torrie McPhail's tunes... "Unleashed Tuning"....

From all the posts here and elsewhere, Torrie & Livernois offer the best "canned"tunes.

Beefcake took Torrie's tune - blackballed him, and then used it with his local Cinci. tuner to improve. The tuner guy supposedly was driving the car much of the time to get it "just right". Supposedly his tune was available for purchase for around $150. but that was a year ago.

I am getting a mid-pipe from Kirk @ NESHO. Since he too has a new SHO, I'm sure he has spent many hours working on tuning it.

Darrel is correct about the CAI & exhaust. I have my own custom CAI which runs very cool. My exhaust is also custom.... 2 rear magnaflows... I love both... Great NOISE Fluff, and Eye Candy!!

I would say that the Red Plastic Turbo Logo I put on my Intake Manifold, probably adds as much HP! NO engine cover or foam DI pump cover for my BRICK!

Lots and lots of trial and error... and just about the time you think it's ready... crappy track conditions.... so,.. back to more trial and error!

LIFE IS GOOD!

Not true. I never had a tune from Torrie on the car that did anything for boost.

I had his n/a tune, found out he blew his engine from my local tuner, found out the ridiculous amount of timing that was in that tune. And had my tuner swap out their tune in the car.

As soon as I found out there was 28 degrees of timing in the tune Torrie provided, i pulled it out.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

My comments are: Torrie has been VERY careful in tuning my car. We constantly look at the SCT LiveLink 6.3 logs and Torrie tunes accordingly.

While I was very concerned about the stories that his SHO blew up.... He is convinced most if not all problems he had were due to his SHO being one of the first EB SHO's sold.

And.... I have NO overheating issues... Maybe its because of the Flex front, or my Carriage Works Grille, or something else.

I just don't think it is right that Torrie is blasted, with no one standing up for him.

And... as for BOOST... with a 3 bar sensor.... I am just about maxing out the turbos.

Stock was 13 lbs PSI Max with a 2 bar is around 14.5. I am seeing nearly 20.

 

[beefcake]

My comments are: Torrie has been VERY careful in tuning my car. We constantly look at the SCT LiveLink 6.3 logs and Torrie tunes accordingly.

While I was very concerned about the stories that his SHO blew up.... He is convinced most if not all problems he had were due to his SHO being one of the first EB SHO's sold.

And.... I have NO overheating issues... Maybe its because of the Flex front, or my Carriage Works Grille, or something else.

I just don't think it is right that Torrie is blasted, with no one standing up for him.

And... as for BOOST... with a 3 bar sensor.... I am just about maxing out the turbos.

Stock was 13 lbs PSI Max with a 2 bar is around 14.5. I am seeing nearly 20.

Thats not what you said. What you said was I took his tune and then gave it to someone else and they tweeked it, it's right there in quotes.

I knew within 2 hours of the engine blowing that it had blown, and thats when I found out the amount of timing that was in the n/a tune on the car.

MD provided me with a new tune, and I loaded it on the car. The tune came from them. They worked with some people that are very good at the SCT stuff.

As far as being beat up on. I'm guessing by your comments he has come forward to admit it was indeed his motor that blew? I know it was denied for quite some time.

I'm not saying he hasn't learned more about these cars in a year and a half. But at that time, knowing what I knew, I did not feel comfortable with his tunes in the car.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Torrie has never specifically said what happened and why. The posts you made were the source of most of the factual info. In fact, he has never specifically stated that his engine tanked.... I assume this information came from the shop that was dyno-ing his vehicle. As we all know.... Torrie is a man of few words....

Only thing he has stated is that the logging numbers for his SHO were never good, and he still wonders why his SHO did not respond like my EB engine. Concluded it may have been because it was one of the first one's built for retail.

I have had NO cooling issues. Some of the reasons may be the way the Flex is designed vs Taurus. It has a tow rating of 4,500 lbs. Also, I have opened the front, to install my Carriage Works Grille, as well as installed a 170 Deg. T-stat. The T-stat alone dropped the engine operating temp by 7-10 deg.

If you recall, I PM'd you after your comments, as I too was concerned.

All of the tweaking of my tunes has been done through SCT LiveLink logging, either on WOT runs on the street or at the strip. Real world conditions and FL temps.