Catless downpipes and 02 defoulers

[908sho]

Really thinking of going with Catless EPP downpipes instead of Catted. What has anyones experience with inspection with Catless? Is it even possible to pass with Catless? Im aware I can get a tune revision from GH that would remove any codes but are O2 defoulers of any use in this situation too? Thanks

 

[yaycandy]

Really thinking of going with Catless EPP downpipes instead of Catted. What has anyones experience with inspection with Catless? Is it even possible to pass with Catless? Im aware I can get a tune revision from GH that would remove any codes but are O2 defoulers of any use in this situation too? Thanks

Depending on your state. I wouldnt use defowlers just get them tuned out so the light aint on. Either way it would fail emissions but if there is no CE light then it would pass inspection if they dont look under it

 

[908sho]

Depending on your state. I wouldnt use defowlers just get them tuned out so the light aint on. Either way it would fail emissions but if there is no CE light then it would pass inspection if they dont look under it

Yeah I have a feeling I might have a shop that could pass it but im still weary a little bit. Already have illegal tints and no front license plate which is illegal in NJ so I might just say **** it again.

 

[yaycandy]

Yeah I have a feeling I might have a shop that could pass it but im still weary a little bit. Already have illegal tints and no front license plate which is illegal in NJ so I might just say **** it again.

I got yelled at for pumping gas there not to long ago. I just yelled back at the foreigner who owned the gas station.

 

[908sho]

I got yelled at for pumping gas there not to long ago. I just yelled back at the foreigner who owned the gas station.

Thats Jersey for yah, I have to watch and make sure they actually press 93 every time.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Really thinking of going with Catless EPP downpipes instead of Catted. What has anyones experience with inspection with Catless? Is it even possible to pass with Catless? Im aware I can get a tune revision from GH that would remove any codes but are O2 defoulers of any use in this situation too? Thanks

First question, EPP downpipes? Never heard or seen of them. Catted or Catless. Second Gearhead doesn't tune catless from what I understand. Here is straight from their website:

Emissions Compliant Tuning​

GH Sales, LLC will not:

• Turn off OBD codes for required emissions equipment that has been removed on any vehicle.
• Produce tunes that have purposeful elevated emissions such as smoke tunes on diesel vehicles or “fuel backfire” tunes on gasoline vehicles or “cam lope tunes” that create elevated emissions or can damage catalytic converters.
• Force excessive and early power enrichment on gasoline vehicles.
• Force leaner than factory part throttle lambda (air fuel ratio) on gasoline calibrations.
• Change a transmission calibration to allow for excessive “lugging” that creates high load, low rpm engine operating conditions.
• Disable knock sensors on gasoline calibrations.

We have no problem turning away business for the above requests, and reiterate that all emissions related equipment must be present to properly run our calibrations.

As for passing emissions catless, it all depends on what you mean by passing. A tailpipe sniffer? No way. A visual inspection? No way.

 

[908sho]

First question, EPP downpipes? Never heard or seen of them. Catted or Catless. Second Gearhead doesn't tune catless from what I understand. Here is straight from their website:

Emissions Compliant Tuning​

View attachment 88012
GH Sales, LLC will not:

• Turn off OBD codes for required emissions equipment that has been removed on any vehicle.
• Produce tunes that have purposeful elevated emissions such as smoke tunes on diesel vehicles or “fuel backfire” tunes on gasoline vehicles or “cam lope tunes” that create elevated emissions or can damage catalytic converters.
• Force excessive and early power enrichment on gasoline vehicles.
• Force leaner than factory part throttle lambda (air fuel ratio) on gasoline calibrations.
• Change a transmission calibration to allow for excessive “lugging” that creates high load, low rpm engine operating conditions.
• Disable knock sensors on gasoline calibrations.

We have no problem turning away business for the above requests, and reiterate that all emissions related equipment must be present to properly run our calibrations.

As for passing emissions catless, it all depends on what you mean by passing. A tailpipe sniffer? No way. A visual inspection? No way.

Well here is the ones ive been eyeing and Ive seen guys running them before with GH tune not to air anyone out but I believe legally they have to have a statement like that. https://www.vividracing.com/ppe-eng...s-sho-flex-ecoboost-20102019-p-152407110.html

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Well here is the ones ive been eyeing and Ive seen guys running them before with GH tune not to air anyone out but I believe legally they have to have a statement like that. https://www.vividracing.com/ppe-eng...s-sho-flex-ecoboost-20102019-p-152407110.html

They may also be using the non-foulers with catalysts in them. Just make sure that your desire/need for going catless is worth the chance of limiting your tuners. For CYA you may get blacklisted by a tuner for requesting such a tune. They face severe penalties if they are caught doing tunes that go against EPA guidelines. Is there a reason you are wanting to go catless?

 

[BradM]

In Illinois they look for DTC codes and the existence of certain System Monitors (no sniffing anymore). I asked them whether a tuner device would pass and they said no. That could be their generic response. My test results show monitors for Catalytic Convertor, Heated 02 Sensor, and Oxygen Sensor. The test results say "Ready". With my off road tune, I know that the secondary 02 sensors are disabled. I do not know if one of the monitors listed above is for checking whether the secondary 02 sensor is operative.

 

[802SHO]

I really struggle with emissions compliant tuning practices……..
Here it comes,
Wait for it…..

Even Livernois tunes out the secondary o2’s for catless downpipes. That’s all that it is….Goes something like this. “Hi, I just bought catless downpipes, does my tune need to be changed? “Yes, here you go, flash this tune before you start it”, said Livernois. Starts car, no CEL. Wow, what a magical moment……….sounds like we’re going backward in tuning not forward if such a simple change is “forbidden” for FS.

Nobody cares. Sure maybe it was a hot topic 3-4 years ago. Pretty sure we are back to “who cares” status. That whole list by GH makes them seem hella unappealing in my opinion. Nobody needs an extra mommy’s worry and concern….we’re all adults. Give me what I want or I’ll get it somewhere else.

Like they’ve never thought of a liability waiver instead or something lol. And what’s next, they only sell services to ppl that brush their teeth with Colgate, no other brand? Point being, why would they give 2 $$$$s if the customer passes an inspection after? Again, add citizens arrest to extra mommy status. With so much reach out of their expertise it’s a wonder they have time to do much tuning.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

2022 Diesel Ops and Orion Diesel - $10 million fine
2022 Nicolas Piccolo - $455,925 civil penalty
2022 Diesel Ops Shop Owner - $1 million civil penalty
2022 Flo-Pro - $1.6 million fine
2022 Matthew Geouge - $1.2 million fine EPA, $1.2 million fine IRS, 366 days jail
2022 RDC Joshua Davis $600,000 fine
2022 PPEI Kory Willis - $1,550,000 civil penalties also facing criminal charges with additional fines and up to 5 years in jail
2023 Diesel Freaks and Ryan Lalone, Wade Lalone, Dustin Rhine, James Sisson, Douglas Larsen, Craig Scholten, Ryan Bos, Robert Swainston, Randy Clelland, Scott DeKock, Glenn Hoezee - $1.75 million fine and plea deals for individuals

Yes, many of these are diesel trucks but they are going after hardware, software, and tuners. Look at the SEMA RPM Act. My freedom and livelihood are not for sale for $200. I imagine many tuners feel the same way. We saw it when multiple companies stopped producing "off-road" pipes and we saw it when tuners stopped tuning these devices out. Look at Mike Sebold that posted his deleted truck for sale and was forced to crush his vehicle. I completely understand tuners who don't even want it mentioned and won't talk to you if you do. Look at all the head shops that sell "tobacco" pipes and if you mention green in any way, they kick you out. As for the reason why they care if a customer passes, all it takes is one customer that is mad and turns them in, one competitor that wants to eliminate competition, or one agent looking to make a name for himself. Lawsuits have been brought on by clean air activists who have no connection to the companies other than finding their ads online.

 

[802SHO]

It’s just fine, GH wants to be a “middle of the road” type of company. Someone not looking for too much will be very happy. Let’s face it, no one gives a $hit about Ford Tauruses outside of the tiny forums and FB groups. We need all the support we can get. We need more of it, not less of it. There’s got to be at least 100,000’s more tuning companies not fined. And so what’s up with Haltech or MoTec, are they exempt from the horse$hit emissions nonsense? Funny how our cheap little tuning devices and cheap tunes are on the chopping block, lowest hanging fruit maybe?

Anyone with ears and eyes knows the emissions from our catless cars is next to nothing in comparison to all the pollution out there. It’s laughable that anyone could pretend to be concerned with the environment and prove it with a catted exhaust system….means nothing.

It’s a travesty bc my build would have no tuning support if all the current tuning companies were like GH. It’s very sad, sad indeed. No high 5 on that one. I’d be forced into MoTec ……which sounds pretty damn good right now tbh.

 

[kryptto]

So I will weigh in - I sat on my car after my job in 2015 turned to a work from home job. Didn't need a car, so I shopped back then and can say the following - Stainless Works, used to sell from manifold back DP's - now nothing, PPE, who funny enough is in CA, makes the pipes and Vivid and a couple of other companies resells them - same reasoning, they aren't selling to customers direct they resell thru a retailer like Vivid. I have seen all of the companies change their wording on their sites to the same that was posted by GH. I talked to a shop here in FL - has an AWD dyno, where there are no state inspections, as soon as I said catless - he said not in my shop. So the scare is real and to @Ta2dResqr point - many wont risk it.

I originally ordered my HP Tuner - because of their forums. It was where I learned how you could tune out the CEL. So at the time not being on these forums, I bought an HP tuner.

More than likely ONLY cause I referred to you all here - my current tuner, never said yes in any emails - but took me on, and made me email saying what @802SHO said about waiving responsibility and me taking it.

The real truth - there are much fewer peeps that modify their vehicles to remove cats or bypass emissions, its a small subsect of the general driving population.

 

[802SHO]

Yeah used to just be as simple as requesting a tune for your off-road race car. Magic. It’s the arrogance of their statement about we don’t mind turning business away. I don’t like authority, what does it matter if you have cats or not. Where’s the EPA, behind them, at their house? On their back? Doing piggy backs? why are they enforcing the EPA in their absence? If the cops at the check point leave….you going to entertain Matt Robinson posting up with his own barricade and check point? What the EPA did to the tuning community was crazy but I don’t think becoming an EPA watchdog is the answer. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Majestic]

Signing a waiver is not going to absolve the tuner of violating the law.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Do I agree with the authoritarian oversite? NOT AT ALL. Do I understand why a company would steer clear of that and you could be limiting your options if you go catless? Yes. Would I ever mention on a public forum which tuners will do it? Never (To that point @kryptto do your tuner a favor a solid and delete the reference). I have been modifying a long time and watched as it went from nothing to "off-road" or "race" only to signing waivers, to the extreme it is now. Like anything, I think it comes in waves. It is at one extreme now and hopefully will head back the other way. I completely understand @802SHO and a couple of others that are hunting for that tenth or hundredth to reach the peak of the platform. For the majority of us, DD and weekend warriors, the tiny amount of performance a cat may inhibit is not in my opinion worth it to limit my tuning options, ask a tuner to risk it, have my name on a customer list, etc.

 

[kryptto]

@kryptto do your tuner a favor a solid and delete the reference)

Done - and agreed. I just posted those to make it easier for others to learn without asking all the time. Point taken.

 

[908sho]

Yeah used to just be as simple as requesting a tune for your off-road race car. Magic. It’s the arrogance of their statement about we don’t mind turning business away. I don’t like authority, what does it matter if you have cats or not. Where’s the EPA, behind them, at their house? On their back? Doing piggy backs? why are they enforcing the EPA in their absence? If the cops at the check point leave….you going to entertain Matt Robinson posting up with his own barricade and check point? What the EPA did to the tuning community was crazy but I don’t think becoming an EPA watchdog is the answer. Just my 2 cents.

Wow I am very disappointed in GH now, they just sent an email confirmation saying they wont tune my car further if I install the catless. Looks like I will be switching tunes for the third time, Livernois to GH and now you guys are saying HP seems to be a good way to go?

 

[kryptto]

Wow I am very disappointed in GH now, they just sent an email confirmation saying they wont tune my car further if I install the catless. Looks like I will be switching tunes for the third time, Livernois to GH and now you guys are saying HP seems to be a good way to go?

Less of a community of tuners, licensing is by car not device. SCT is the 95% of what you see for this platform. Morale of the story stay legal.

 

[802SHO]

See now that makes 0 sense for GH NOT to tune you. Catless or catted they both have secondary o2 bungs and leaving them untouched tune wise will give you a CEL and that’s all the reach the EPA has, GH is being a cop and going even further…pretending to be a DMV authority? With all due respect to GH, $$ck GH! Stay in your lane. Better odds of just losing business in general than the EPA coming down on them, Robinson has better odds of being struck by lightning in his kitchen.

Thankfully not everyone is cowering to them like GH.