Cam welding question

[Bizzy]

I was reading a website today that also offers a cam solution for the Gen 3 SHO. They apparently are using roll pins to correct the problem, but they also mention that welding is not recommended because it can warp the cam.

Now, I'm assuming that they say this because it could happen if the person doing the welding didn't really know what they were doing. How much truth is there in what they say though? Is the roll pin a viable option for the Gen 3 owners? Can anyone offer a comparison of the two?

 

[Shakey]

Wow! Finally something I me be able to help with.

I have read a lot on this debate at V8SHO and basically what you mentioned in your questions is the actual "meat" of the debate itself.

To paraphrase:

True: Welding can result in cam damage (in the form of warping) if the person doing the welding doesn't perform it correctly.

True: Pinning is a viable alternative solution as well. (but much more costly)

However...

There are some who believe that pinning can be just as dangerous, because there have been some cases of pins becoming loose and working their way out, thus resulting in horrific damage.

Here are couple of links for your reading enjoyment:

http://v8sho.com/SHO/SHOShopRol PinSolution.htm

http://v8sho.com/SHO/DavidWarePinnedCamFailure395.htm

http://v8sho.com/SHO/KirkBufordonPinning.htm

And here's some more info on welding:

http://fordspecialists.com/camweld.htm

http://v8sho.com/SHO/StillskepticalaboutCamWelding.htm

Hope all this helps...

 

[Bizzy]

I guess I'm behind the times a bit because I don't frequent V8SHO.com enough. But since I don't own one yet I never really had any real reason to go there and read up on it. (Sorry Larry)

Sorry to bring up something that has probably been talked about as much as "what's the best oil for your car" type posts. It was new news to me so I just wanted a little more clarification on it.

P.S. Thanks for the links. I'm going to go read up a bit.

 

[Shakey]

Cool, your welcome. I had fun learning about this stuff before my decision to weld.


...Oh, and of course that would be Mobile1 5w30


And btw...

I think if you decide to go with a Gen3 you will be pleasently supprised. Although the gen 3s are not as "sporty" as the rest, (mainly because of atx) they are much more comfortable and "refined". I think you will love it.

 

[Bizzy]

Yes, I know I would enjoy a Gen 3. I've driven one and it was a real dream. I love my MTX but there are times when I really enjoy an ATX...and if I get a car that is ATX it'll be a Gen 3. Mmmmm...cushy.......

 

[Off Road SHO]

Just my two cents worth. Pinning of a gear ****** or hub to a cam is like using a rivet, which is a very good way BTW to hold two pieces of metal together. That is why ships are riveted and not welded (except during wartime when quality is not an issue). HOWEVER, finding an experienced riveteer nowadays is difficult. Technology has favored the move towards welding of steels.

Pinning, like welding is heat dependant to be done right. If a certified or very experienced welder know his *********** and heat transfer times well, I believe welding is the way to go.

Tom

 

[SHOerwin]

Weld it- Pin it- Oh, and by the way Beth, thanks for the salute smilie!! For those about to weld, we you!

 

[BodylessSHO]

Pinning, in all honestly, is just to expensive to have done well. Welding is a much more viable option. You have to think of it this way, yes, ships are riveted, but ships are also built to last at least 50 years, if not much more. Lets be honest, most of our cars are not going to last 50 years.

 

[stephen newberg]

"That is why ships are riveted and not welded"

"yes, ships are riveted"

Well guys, I can see you all have not been going to sea much since the Second World War or so.

Back then, there were several reasons for riveting ship hull plates rather than welding (skill of welders, maximum weld quality & strength, etc), but all of those reasons declined back in the 1950's or there abouts. Welding is in fact the norm these days for ship hulls, and has been for a very long time. To find a recent ship hull that had been riveted would could likely take a long search.

However, pinning, when done correctly, should work as well as any welding. The problem is that doing it correctly is these days more difficult than finding a skilled welder. As a marine engineering application, pinning is still fairly common, particularly in such areas as mounting props on shafts and various mooring systems. But from an automotive standpoint, I think you are much less likely to have troubles with getting a good job done if you go to welding.

pax, smn

 

[SHOWHAT9]

I guess I'm behind the times a bit because I don't frequent V8SHO.com enough. But since I don't own one yet I never really had any real reason to go there and read up on it. (Sorry Larry)

Sorry to bring up something that has probably been talked about as much as "what's the best oil for your car" type posts. It was new news to me so I just wanted a little more clarification on it.

P.S. Thanks for the links. I'm going to go read up a bit.

Beth,
We have two known failures of pinned cams. We have 0 known failures of welded cams. That coupled with the fact that the shop that was a proponent of pinning is slowly working it's was out to the SHO Business leaves welding as the only viable option.
Pinning is extrememly costly and used to require the extraction of all four cams from the car, shipped to the machine shop, then returned. The car would conceiveably be out of commission for two weeks or more.
Welding, worse case, your'e in and out in 3/4 of a day.
Pinning, IIRC used be quoted in the ballpark of $2,200.00.
Wedling varies from @450 - 800 depending on other work done.
We have far more people on the site who have experience welding than we do pinning (0)
I don't know much about shipbuilding, but I know what the evidence supports. In our case, take your car to any of the competent, experienced welders found on www.v8sho.com and be safe.
Now if we could just find a fix for our slushboxes..............
BTW going out to NE over the weekend to pick up dead sowhat9. She ate herself alive from overheating in a vain attempt to get her family out of the high desert.
Autopsy starts Monday. I'll share what I find. Damn was like leaving a child behind.

 

[stephen newberg]

"Now if we could just find a fix for our slushboxes.............."

I still have not figured out what is wrong with it. 127,000 and counting and not a hiccup yet.

pax, smn

 

[SHOWHAT9]

"Now if we could just find a fix for our slushboxes.............."

I still have not figured out what is wrong with it. 127,000 and counting and not a hiccup yet.

pax, smn

Count your blessings!!

 

[SHOGrabber]

I think some words got thrown around here as the same. And some are not used.

(Welding) We all know what that is and where the welds go. Plus that is the way to go like everyone said. Larger surface area around a bigger circle(cam) to hold it
(Pinning)We all know that the famous shop in Cali done this. They are solid. When put in they are peened over(a little) to keep from falling out. Still to small of a area towards the middle of a circle to hold all that rotational stress. It's called shearing it off.(the pin)
(Roll Pin)They are hollow, not used. Crazy if they are.
(Riviting)Not used either. They are red hot when put in and then peened on both sides. They cool off and help pull the steel together. Good for holding steel together but not for rotational stress.

 

[Mystery Train]

Obviously this topic has been debated alot by much more knowledgeable folks than myself, but I think there is one aspect of pinning vs. welding that has changed in the past few years that isn't really mentioned in this thread- Depreciation of SHO's in today's market means welding is the ONLY answer these days.

A few years ago, the owner of a fairly new 99 or 98 Gen3 had plunked down pretty big $ for their car. Spending $2000 to prevent catastrophic cam failure made sense if the pinning solution was truly a more solid fix.

I just spent a little under $7000 for a 98 with 60K. I live in LA, so I actually had easier access to the shop that does the pinning than to a known SHO welder. But I just couldn't see spending nearly one third of the value of the car to fix the cams when I could spend $700 for a weld job. Given that there are many, many people to vouch for welding (when done by a reputable source), it is a much more sensible route to go given the cost of the job vs. the cost of buying a used SHO. A few years from now, a used SHO will be had for almost the same cost as pinning cam sprockets!

I'll be driving 6+ hours north to Placerville, CA to have my cams welded this weekend by Russ & Chris, who have more than a dozen happy SHO customers under their belts. Wish me luck!

MT

 

[stephen newberg]

Aside from all the other commentary, MT just above has a good point. With the decline in value of the Gen III as it ages, pinning, because of cost, becomes pretty much out of the question. And, as has been covered very completely, properly done welding, which is not all that hard to come by any more, is from any practical standpoint just as good, or potentially even better, as a fix, not even considering the differences in time involved, since the welding can be done with the cams in the car. That last seemed to me to be decisive, in most cases, making it all a one day operation, rather than a multiple day one.

pax, smn

 

[SHOGrabber]

I'll be driving 6+ hours north to Placerville, CA to have my cams welded this weekend by Russ & Chris, who have more than a dozen happy SHO customers under their belts. Wish me luck!

MT

I drove 10 to Atlanta! You won't believe the feeling on the way home that you have, that you don't have to worry anymore.

You got my Best Wishes!

 

[Ian Macoomb]

The ONE place that does pinning is a joke. They're so full of **** it's not funny. Why even consider pinning then? It's not cheaper and it's not more reliable. Get them welded, end of story. Ding.

 

[SHOWHAT9]

Interestingly enough, over on the V8List a member has made an inquiry as to welding his pinned cams.
Not much faith there I would suspect.