92 mtx backfiring, no start

[Doug Flutie]

92 mtx, new timing belt, cps, water pump, good dis module, all grounds cleaned, CKS sensor working, it's got fuel 40psi and it's got good fire.

Yes it did run fine after everything was replaced.
Upon initial start it will hit and run rough for a second or two then die. Any attempt to start it after that has it backfiring, sometimes through the exhaust, sometimes through the intake.

Anyone ever experienced this?

It acts like the timing is erratic. CPU?

 

[luigisho]

You got codes stored? Check that first. I would look at spark wire routing, vacuum leaks, and maybe timing belt slipped. Codes first.

 

[Irish Pride]

How long ago was everything replaced and how long before it started to backfire?

 

[luigisho]

How long ago was everything replaced and how long before it started to backfire?

Yes. I was assuming it was in a very short time but that's an important piece of info to solve the issue.

 

[tracy_s_1993_atx]

My '93 ATX did the same thing. I had all these weird codes set and finally diagnosed to be the Ignition Control Module(ICM).

 

[FastCAD]

92 mtx, new timing belt, cps, water pump, good dis module, all grounds cleaned, CKS sensor working, it's got fuel 40psi and it's got good fire.

Yes it did run fine after everything was replaced.
Upon initial start it will hit and run rough for a second or two then die. Any attempt to start it after that has it backfiring, sometimes through the exhaust, sometimes through the intake.

Anyone ever experienced this?

It acts like the timing is erratic. CPU?

Did you verify that the cam(s) marks were aligned when you put the new belt on?
Joe

 

[Doug Flutie]

It's giving me two codes a 211 and a 452.

Correct me of I'm wrong....
211 PIP which is the CKS
452 is the speed sensor

If the CKS isn't working I won't be getting any fire correct?
I got fire.
Everything suggests that the CKS is either good or it's bad. No working intermittently.

Not sure about the speed sensor code.

 

[BaySHO Performance]

Yes it did run fine after everything was replaced.

Upon initial start it will hit and run rough for a second or two then die. Any attempt to start it after that has it backfiring, sometimes through the exhaust, sometimes through the intake.

Anyone ever experienced this? It acts like the timing is erratic. CPU?

I assume that it ran fine for a while, but is now acting up?

The 211 is a bit of a mystery, as it's obvious that the CPS (CKS) is sending a signal, otherwise the plugs wouldn't fire. The WP can't be leaking on to it.

My main theory is that there's water in the plug wells. Is that a possibility?

 

[FastCAD]

I assume that it ran fine for a while, but is now acting up?

The 211 is a bit of a mystery, as it's obvious that the CPS (CKS) is sending a signal, otherwise the plugs wouldn't fire. The WP can't be leaking on to it.

My main theory is that there's water in the plug wells. Is that a possibility?

I thought CKS was cam sensor?
A bad cam sensor or connection will allow the engine to fire and backfire and die.
Joe

 

[Rotor]

From another thread.
With the codes you’re getting this may be worth having a look at.

I wouldn’t rule out vacuum leaks either. Had a 88 F250 that suddenly started running rough and cracking off these (literally) gunshot loud backfires. Was nothing more than a vacuum hose that had come off some module on the firewall. I don’t remember the details but the thing was critical to the timing advance if I’m not mistaken.

A breakout box is practically mandatory if you’re trying to diagnose some if the things these cars can put you through. Good Luck!

 

[Doug Flutie]

I assume that it ran fine for a while, but is now acting up?

The 211 is a bit of a mystery, as it's obvious that the CPS (CKS) is sending a signal, otherwise the plugs wouldn't fire. The WP can't be leaking on to it.

My main theory is that there's water in the plug wells. Is that a possibility?

Nah the water pump isn't leaking and there isn't anything in the plug wells. I'm not sure how I'd even get water in the plug wells

I'll double check all the connections and vacuum lines. At this point I'm open to any suggestions.

 

[luigisho]

You can get water in there from washing the engine among other strange things. We still don't know how long from when you did the work to when the issues appeared.

 

[Doug Flutie]

Yeah these things are finicky enough with crap connectors, sensors, and wiring.
Introducing water unnecessarily to the engine compartment is the last thing I would do.

Speaking of which I'm pretty sure I figured out what was wrong.

The CPS connector was bad.

What I now know for sure.
With the CKS unhooked there is no fire but tach still works.
With the CPS unhooked the tach doesn't work and it will still fire and may or may not start and run.
At one point the CEL came on with these codes 211, 214, 542, 452.

And now the AC isn't working.

 

[FastCAD]

Yeah these things are finicky enough with crap connectors, sensors, and wiring.
Introducing water unnecessarily to the engine compartment is the last thing I would do.

Speaking of which I'm pretty sure I figured out what was wrong.

The CPS connector was bad.

What I now know for sure.
With the CKS unhooked there is no fire but tach still works.
With the CPS unhooked the tach doesn't work and it will still fire and may or may not start and run.
At one point the CEL came on with these codes 211, 214, 542, 452.

And now the AC isn't working.

Something doesn't sound right.
If the CPS (crank position sensor) is unhooked the engine will "not" fire. It will only crank.
If the CKS (cam position sensor) is unhooked and the engine will not fire how do you know the tach works?
With the a/c switch on and the ignition on does the engine cooling fan come on?
When you turn the ignition on do you hear the fuel pump come on?
All of these things are controlled by the CCRM (computer controlled relay module) located under the radiator cover (drivers side).
Did you disconnect the battery negative cable before you did your service?
The CCRM is prone to being shorted this way and the computer too.
Good Luck.

 

[Doug Flutie]

Something doesn't sound right.
If the CPS (crank position sensor) is unhooked the engine will "not" fire. It will only crank.
If the CKS (cam position sensor) is unhooked and the engine will not fire how do you know the tach works?
With the a/c switch on and the ignition on does the engine cooling fan come on?
When you turn the ignition on do you hear the fuel pump come on?
All of these things are controlled by the CCRM (computer controlled relay module) located under the radiator cover (drivers side).
Did you disconnect the battery negative cable before you did your service?
The CCRM is prone to being shorted this way and the computer too.
Good Luck.

CPS is cam
CKS is crank

Go unhook your CPS and try starting it while you watch your tach.

As for the ac, when the compressor kicks on both the high and low pressure sides drop.
So it cycles for a couple seconds at a time.
Yes it’s fully charged.
The guy I got it from said he just had the compressor replaced. It does look new, nice and clean with legible labels.
It has been converted to 134.
I’m thinking maybe a blockage somewhere.

 

[FastCAD]

CPS is cam
CKS is crank

Go unhook your CPS and try starting it while you watch your tach.

As for the ac, when the compressor kicks on both the high and low pressure sides drop.
So it cycles for a couple seconds at a time.
Yes it’s fully charged.
The guy I got it from said he just had the compressor replaced. It does look new, nice and clean with legible labels.
It has been converted to 134.
I’m thinking maybe a blockage somewhere.

Thanks for the CKS (crank) clarification.
So you fixed the CPS connector wiring and the SHO is now running and the tach works?
The a/c clutch does engage? Any air flow in cabin?

 

[FastCAD]

Thanks for the CKS (crank) clarification.
So you fixed the CPS connector wiring and the SHO is now running and the tach works?
The a/c clutch does engage? Any air flow in cabin?

The a/c recycle switch for 134a and 22r are different values.
Same goes for the orifice tube in the liquid line under the battery.

 

[itwonder]

If I may, the SHO camshaft sensor is called the Cylinder Indentification Sensor, or CID. The crankshaft sensor is called the Profile Ignition Pickup, or PIP, by Ford. Source: The Ford Parts and Service Division Technical Training, Engine Operations - SHO 3.0L , published in 1988 (often referred to here as the SHO Engine Book). Customarily, for many years, the term CPS for Crankshaft Position Sensor, has been favored on the SHO forum over the term PIP for clarity because PIP is also a signal name. CID is used, as per Ford, to refer to the camshaft sensor.

From modern automotive parlance, other terms for the crankshaft position sensor, such as CKS, CAS, CKP, etc. have crept into more recent threads.

But to summarize, CPS for the crank sensor, and CID for the cam sensor. Hope this helps.

 

[NoSlo]

If I may, the SHO camshaft sensor is called the Cylinder Indentification Sensor, or CID. The crankshaft sensor is called the Profile Ignition Pickup, or PIP, by Ford. Source: The Ford Parts and Service Division Technical Training, Engine Operations - SHO 3.0L , published in 1988 (often referred to here as the SHO Engine Book). Customarily, for many years, the term CPS for Crankshaft Position Sensor, has been favored on the SHO forum over the term PIP for clarity because PIP is also a signal name. CID is used, as per Ford, to refer to the camshaft sensor.

From modern automotive parlance, other terms for the crankshaft position sensor, such as CKS, CAS, CKP, etc. have crept into more recent threads.

But to summarize, CPS for the crank sensor, and CID for the cam sensor. Hope this helps.

CKP is used in the EVTM, don't know beginning what year, but it is hard to mistake this abbreviation. It could mean either "crank position" or "crank pip".

PIP alone even refers to an ignition sensor inside a distributor in non-sequential ignition Fords.

The 1989 engine operations manual ("SHO Book") has an IAC -- "Intake Air Control". The secondary runner modulator. Please don't use that abbreviation, as we'll think you are talking about the idle air control valve.

 

[FastCAD]

If I may, the SHO camshaft sensor is called the Cylinder Indentification Sensor, or CID. The crankshaft sensor is called the Profile Ignition Pickup, or PIP, by Ford. Source: The Ford Parts and Service Division Technical Training, Engine Operations - SHO 3.0L , published in 1988 (often referred to here as the SHO Engine Book). Customarily, for many years, the term CPS for Crankshaft Position Sensor, has been favored on the SHO forum over the term PIP for clarity because PIP is also a signal name. CID is used, as per Ford, to refer to the camshaft sensor.

From modern automotive parlance, other terms for the crankshaft position sensor, such as CKS, CAS, CKP, etc. have crept into more recent threads.

But to summarize, CPS for the crank sensor, and CID for the cam sensor. Hope this helps.

I give up! These terms were a big problem even in the ole "Shotimes" forum days. I'll just use simple terms like"crank sensor, cam sensor, idle air bypass etc. it will help to preserve my sanity. lol

This backfiring issue seems to be a timing problem like the cams are not aligned or the plug wire sequence is incorrect. Pull the top cover off the front of the cams and turn the crank to top dead center (two turns) and double check the timing "dots" on the cam sprockets are both at 12 o'clock.

Yes, getting water in your plug wells and intake will cause backfiring and getting water on to your crank sensor
will also cause problems.
Meaning...
"Never"wash a SHO engine with pressure and cover up your electronics when using water. Never drive your SHO through deep water. If you do make these "water" mistakes, let your SHO sit and dry out for about 3 days and it will come back.