802SHO 2010 Build

[802SHO]

I’m onto something. Mocal. Same exact pumps and description as Turbowerx except Mocal is a legit manufacturer out of the UK. Time to do some calling around. I’ll buy the pump but from the original manufacturer …if that’s Mocal. Lots of places sell Mocal’s pumps, the heavy duty military spec ones. Word for word same description as Turbowerx description. Also will be calling a Garrett distributor to talk about Oil feed psi and oil seals. But I’ve changed the oil return and the feed…haven’t changed pumps …yet. Seems clearly the pump is the issue.

 

[kryptto]

The way he responds is a red flag to me but idk where else to go. The brand seems to have a good reputation despite his attitude. But if you imagine thousands of complaints…would you just mumble meaningless or made up facts…20+ years 10,000 installs never an issue…really? So the perfect pumps ever created? Not believable.

I get ya, its funny I was reading the LS forums since well you know those Vette dudes. Much point back to Marc products, and unfortunately there were many speaking to BR - saying they had very positive experiences. But the threads were dated for sure, nearly 10 years dated. I would like to hear - give me your engine, and turbos and let me crunch the numbers. Its so weird no one suggests a design. I get it - how do they know how you mounted things. The only book I found on Amazon, actually looked like it talks about oil outlet angles and degrees, and distance to source was this one (I know this is off topic):

https://a.co/d/caH9mDS

It might be a kids book for you by now... but hey just trying to assist.

 

[802SHO]

Oof so Mocal scavenger pumps are actually rebranded Turbowerx pumps! They get them from Turbowerx.

 

[802SHO]

Welp, bought the MIL-SPEC Exa-Pump from Turbowerx. Did my research and all trails led me right back to them. I was sold on 3GPM open flow with 3/4-16 ORB inlet and outlet. I didn’t need it built to be impervious to elements but what the heck…consider the build a private military contractor vehicle. Also picked up another tank with more favorable dimensions to replace my Y fitting, dead center.

I’ve been looking into siphoning and what I think is happening when the car is turned off is all the oil in the feed lines gets sucked dry into the turbos. Pump is also no longer sucking. What I’m going to simply do is add more hose length to my oil feed, route it straight down to the subframe and have the Y there, then it will go straight over and have to go against gravity to each turbo feed. Against gravity is of no concern bc it’s pressurized but against gravity will stop siphoning from taking place without adding check valves. Or perhaps a check valve in an against gravity situation makes more sense to stop reverse flow…the way I have it now it wouldn’t be reverse flow it would just be checking pressure so it makes me weary it would work correctly. Hmm maybe I reroute and add check valves?

Solution seems to be throw another 1k at it and I hope this is the end of this fiasco. For F’s sake! Now just waiting to talk to a Garrett engineer when they open up in Cali. Got a number to call from a Garrett distributor. Just want to talk about the seals and make sure it really is just cleaning up the oil. They’re made of metal so idk what could ruin them but best to ask the appropriate person to make sure all my efforts are not in vein.

 

[Vestin112]

Bro I know these frustrations , you're 95% there just gotta keep that measured mindset bro!

 

[802SHO]

I’ve called a few times now and left a voicemail trying to reach a Garrett engineer or someone able to answer an engineering question about the seals and water feed.

I noticed on their site it briefly talks about the seals, nothing about if they can be damaged or what not. I think in my case there is no damage. It cartridge doesn’t have any capacity to store oil. The shaft and bearings get lubricated as the oil passes through and offers decent sealing to not smoke or leak while it’s getting the lubrication it needs. It doesn’t have any capacity to store oil and when the return backs up to the turbo and the oil can’t go anywhere it breaches the seals, each one has 2 tiny holes in its inner body.
The other hole is adjacent to that one. I could rotate the holes idk how much it matters. That would be my question at this point. If the turbo was physically damaged then it would need a lot more than new seals…so for leaking bc of lack of a drain I’m not concerned anymore with …is just cleaning ok? I’d say yes. Nothing else to do.

Here it mentions not recommended to have inlet and outlet on the same side for water
So my question was why? I’d assume it’s not ideal but my bracket is in the way on the other side. At least it’s in the way if I leave them clocked as-is. I hate when you find a recommendation with no explanation. I wanted to know if it was still ok if that’s all the space you have but since I’ve been unable to reach someone I went ahead and made the changes the best I could. If you’ll notice one compressor bracket bolt is about 90 and in the way if I were to rotate the cartridge more to the right to clear part of the bracket.
If I rotated it to the right the oil drain would also be pointing more up, so this way works and makes the drain have a little more of a better angle for draining.


The turbos are 9-10* and that’s within range. I found something from Precision Turbo stating:
We do not recommend a unit to sit more that 15* from center/level.
Grant Gorham
Territory 2 Sales Representative
Precision Turbo & Engine
616A S Main St., PO Box 425, Hebron, IN 46341
P: (219) 996-7832 | F: (219) 996-7749
http://www.PrecisionTurbo.net

So I just wait now for parts to arrive and keep cleaning the oil off everything. Most of it is gone, need to do a final wipe down on the exhausts and a quick paint touch up. Feeding the exits through the fenders is a delicate operation that repetition isn’t so forgiving.
If they were unpainted it would be of no concern but I had to paint them black …and live with endless paint touch ups lol

 

[kryptto]

So my question was why? I’d assume it’s not ideal but my bracket is in the way on the other side. At least it’s in the way if I leave them clocked as-is. I hate when you find a recommendation with no explanation. I wanted to know if it was still ok if that’s all the space you have but since I’ve been unable to reach someone I went ahead and made the changes the best I could

My educated guess would be, to have the water flow around to push water in, and pull heat out. If they are 90* it could possibly not wash cool water over the other 75% efficiently. SO in one side water flows around the entire housing, and out the other side.

Found this:

Turbo System Optimization

Turbo System Optimization covers the auxiliary systems and how to properly calculate, install, identify problems, as well as tips for how to correct

www.garrettmotion.com

They speak to the angle of the oil port as well.

 

[Texas Marauder]

Assuming the water ports are unmarked, I think they want the water connections on opposite sides so that water flows over the bearing, carrying heat away. If the inlet and outlet are on the same side the water may bypass the bearing or not cool as efficiently.

 

[802SHO]

Assuming the water ports are unmarked, I think they want the water connections on opposite sides so that water flows over the bearing, carrying heat away. If the inlet and outlet are on the same side the water may bypass the bearing or not cool as efficiently.

It’s got inlets and outlets on both sides so it should all connect in the middle but I assumed not flow as good as it could but also before I didn’t have water at all for those first 30 miles..but no WOT stuff mostly granny driving so I’m sure everything is fine. I figured too hard to get fittings by the brackets and some water better than no water. But here I am with an opportunity to try again and figure out a way.

 

[802SHO]

My educated guess would be, to have the water flow around to push water in, and pull heat out. If they are 90* it could possibly not wash cool water over the other 75% efficiently. SO in one side water flows around the entire housing, and out the other side.

Found this:

Turbo System Optimization

Turbo System Optimization covers the auxiliary systems and how to properly calculate, install, identify problems, as well as tips for how to correct

www.garrettmotion.com

They speak to the angle of the oil port as well.

View attachment 92416

Ok so the axis of the turbo is 4*. The center housing it says for best results have it at 20*. What I was showing was the center housing at 10* not the axis.

This is the center housing at their recommended 20* for water.
I just need to swap my water feed and return. Having the feed uphill in the center housing is interesting I ran it the opposite way…regardless it’s all uphill bc they’re so low but it’s pressurized so it will get to wherever it needs to. But for the center housing I’ll swap the feed and return so irs orientated that way.

This angle will help the oil drain even more. I bet I had this at 4-5* before so another 15* will help for sure. Any slight angles seem to have an exaggerated impact

 

[kryptto]

Ok so the axis of the turbo is 4*. The center housing it says for best results have it at 20*. What I was showing was the center housing at 10* not the axis.

This is the center housing at their recommended 20* for water. View attachment 92417View attachment 92418
I just need to swap my water feed and return. Having the feed uphill in the center housing is interesting I ran it the opposite way…regardless it’s all uphill bc they’re so low but it’s pressurized so it will get to wherever it needs to. But for the center housing I’ll swap the feed and return so irs orientated that way.

This angle will help the oil drain even more. I bet I had this at 4-5* before so another 15* will help for sure. Any slight angles seem to have an exaggerated impact

I keep reading about using oil restrictions with the incoming pressure since the water cooling does the heavy lift removing heat, however they don't use Journal bearings, thus need less oil. Could this help with scavnging....?

"Reduced Oil Flow – The ball bearing design reduces the required amount of oil required to provide adequate lubrication. This lower
oil volume reduces the chance for seal leakage. Also, the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal l u b e conditions, and diminishes
the possibility of turbocharger failure on engine shut down."

 

[802SHO]

Yes the turbos come with restrictors installed

 

[802SHO]

I received all the parts I’ll need yesterday. I’ve got maybe Tuesday and Wednesday to have this completed by and hopefully drive it to a cool place for pics and then snow is coming and it’s wrap for 2024.

The military exa pump and new collection tank are very nice.
I swapped my coolant feed and return hoses at their T fittings and rerouted the feed lower. I also made a tall 90 for the feed with no new hose…just the existing hoses, then added a -4 female union, -4 male union to the 90 swivel. I couldn’t find a -4 female to -4 male fitting so I did the unions and made it tall.
I did hear back from Garrett directly. A woman left a voicemail she did say Garrett doesn’t directly support the end user so for further assistance to contact the distributor and ask them …but I already know some distributors can replace part numbers but lack actual technical expertise to answer engineering questions. Her voicemail said the engineering dept told her the turbo seals are circular metal piston rings and they should be fine unless they are overheated and coped with oil, causing them to collapse. Cleaning and starting over is fine. They also said water inlet and outlet on the same side is ok. For any further questions contact the distributor. Well, I’ve got them setup for thermal siphoning anyway.

On my oil return off the the angle of decent initially is about 13* sloping down…unfortunately bc of my location the lines have to become horizontal and it slopes from 13* to level about 6-7” from the end of the hose but then it does go up 3*. And the hoses are tight…to thread them all I end up using a AN wrench.
This last bit of 3* bothers me so I’m going to remove some of the chassis mount metal to allow them to be level or even better my goal should be that they are 1* decline.
I’ll have to put the splitter on to see how much material I can remove. Of course if I didn’t have a chassis splitter I could lower them a little more but it is what it is. I should be able to remove material in the shape of the hose and get that incline of 3* to go away.

 

[kryptto]

Looks great Andrew, much better luck, this time around. That is one serious looking pump...

 

[FrankK]

I hope you can get a street run in before you get snow.

 

[802SHO]

I hope you can get a street run in before you get snow.

Me too

 

[SHOdded]

if you can rope an engineer into the project, you might get it all figured out/get the answers you need/want. best of luck with your trial runs.

 

[802SHO]

Thanks. It’s more like a constant battle of knowing how it should be orientated VS available space. These turbos are really low. Exhaust is all the way in the way too.

This is how it was looking …the line from the tank to the pump was level with the pump until the exhaust went back on. I let it droop down low right up against the exhaust otherwise it would have to go up over it and that probably would be the worse of the 2 scenarios. It made my tank slant downwards…that could be good? So what I’m going to be checking for is….when the car is shut down, there shouldn’t be anything in the return line attached to the turbo. If I remove it and it’s 100% full and to the center housing oil return fitting…back to the drawing board. The lines should be empty of actual fluid…some residue sure but no fluid at all. If the lines are empty of fluid it’s definitely working. It is a purtty pump

Since I had it under the knife again I remembered to make an improvement to how I originally set up vacuum to the brake booster and boost solenoid. I had bought a bunch of Vibrant 1/4” aluminum T fittings and I T’d the vacuum reference from the intake to both the solenoid and brake booster. The brake booster takes about of vacuum, its larger ID and has its own source with the OEM intake and EPP. The boost solenoid vacuum had its own single/direct source. So I removed the T, threw together an intake vacuum source from where I used to have the UPR DVCC source straight to the brake booster.
Now the boost solenoid has its own source and I’m sure my wastegates will appreciate that.

 

[802SHO]

Chasing these issue really puts into perspective turbo placement ….i likely could have figured a place to mount them a little higher. Even 2-3” would help a ton. Ok so after redoing it all again check out how low these turbos are…look at the center tank below the IC….doesnt get any lower than that
Test results: idled for 5-6 min, maybe longer. Gave it some quick revs. Checking for oil splatter and also to see if any oil weeps out of the tank breather element. Dry, dry. Took for about a 1 mile test drive. Mid throttle. Stopped and wanted to check some light smoke coming from turbo exhaust exits…looking for oil…dry. Drove it back, gave it one healthy rev…all the turbo spooling noises. Check exits…ok dry as bone. Wondering if regulator and restrictors too much now lol.

Up on the lift while it’s still hot. The -10 oil return fittings actually need the compressor bracket to be removed…if you can believe that. Remove the bracket, loosen the line and nothing!!!! Just a slow drip. Nothing in the line when turned upside down. When I let the line hang down lower than the tank some did trickle out but nothing much. Literally just trickled out. It’s working!
That’s what I wanted to see.

Now I’m wondering if I’m restricting it too much with a regulator and restrictors. If the restrictors are good for about 40-45 psi WOT in a system that puts out about 65 psi feed pressure than with a regulator at 40 psi it likely won’t see more than 20-25 psi at WOT. So I think for my next drive I’ll leave it as is since I can’t go WOT right now anyway but…if I need to swap the restrictors out or regulator vice versa…I’ll be happy to do so. At least they have water cooling so if it were to be under oiled briefly I think all will be ok.

 

[kryptto]

I think for my next drive I’ll leave it as is since I can’t go WOT right now anyway but…if I need to swap the restrictors out or regulator vice versa…I’ll be happy to do s

Now that you got the physical mechanics figured out... let Brad tell you about the PSI and if restrictors can come off. One item at a time. You got this!