802SHO 2010 Build

[Texas Marauder]

Before he answers, I already noticed during initial fill and gear cycling that temps would always gain more in Reverse. Now it makes sense. The converter is slipping more under load in R which generates more heat and helps warm the fluid faster.

Why would the converter slip more in reverse than drive? The engine is pushing against a stalled transmission either way.

 

[802SHO]

Why would the converter slip more in reverse than drive? The engine is pushing against a stalled transmission either way.

Idk good question. Maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it does. I tend to think absolute too much when I agree with something. How I explained it clicked for me whether or not that is the exact nuance of it.

Jordan was very clear about R, maybe bc it’s one large fixed ratio loaded hard against the stalled drivetrain. Idk if it’s safer on the system than drive? 1400-1500 rpm isn’t too harsh. I’m planning on doing it 30 seconds on 30 seconds off…at first. I’m not going to just hold it down for 5 min initially.

 

[802SHO]

Also my observations with my trans temps idling where observed with no reservations as far as what it was supposed to do other than compared to my Raptor idling.

I wasn’t going to drive in the rain and all I had left was idle more to see if it keeps climbing. The fact that it continued to creep up was good data and eventually hold was also a testament to my high flowing transmission hoses and race oil cooler. It simply does not get too hot idling and that’s a good thing.

 

[Texas Marauder]

I'm not disagreeing about stalling the torque converter to raise the fluid temp. I do it myself, 1500 rpm for 15-20 seconds at a time. Just that it doesn't matter whether you use reverse or drive. In my mind, drive is maybe less stress on the transmission.

 

[802SHO]

I'm not disagreeing about stalling the torque converter to raise the fluid temp. I do it myself, 1500 rpm for 15-20 seconds at a time. Just that it doesn't matter whether you use reverse or drive. In my mind, drive is maybe less stress on the transmission.

Could very well be.

 

[802SHO]

The weather is actually fantastic tomorrow as well so today somehow I didn’t get to driving the car. Part shop work and part honey-to-do-list (AKA or sleep on the couch nonsense) stuff to do that took too long.

Shop is getting ready.
My scheme is, no paint required. 7/16 OSB over the existing craptastic Sheetrock, then a cosmetic layer on top, 3/16 white primed bead board. I’ll be able to put up lights and everything wherever I want. Render of what it might look like
With 100X more lighting. I just can’t wait to hang it and walk away. No taping, no paint. Basically the OSB is the price of paint and the bead board the price of CDX plywood.

I did go crazy left field and made my own DIY tire scrub pads.
Bought this Gyraline DIY alignment tool months ago. Actually I think end of December’25. They have a G2 now this is just G1.
When the car was up on the lift I loosened the track arms and outer tie rods. Set the steering wheel straight and started with my thrust angle.
Yikes. Kept working at it
Leave it alone …………why didn’t I do this earlier!!! wtf. This is awesome! Instant gratification and it’s addicting…I had to F with it of course and left it here after going insane Ok now 6 point quick alignment let’s dial in the front
Don’t F touch it! Haha! I’ll test this. Could spend as long as you want making micro adjustments. Pretty sweet if you ask me. Car is ready to go WOT tomorrow. But not until the afternoon bc I got help installing the OSB and bead board. Of course..I wish I had all day to keep adjusting and testing the car.
For V2 of my scrub pads I’ll add one more layer of 2x8x12 for a little more room to work off the floor but they worked great. I used a laser on the center of the pads while the car was in the air to center them and simply lower them on. Made sure the car was aired to ride height and went to town. It’s pretty slick.

I guess Gyraline G2 includes some legit sensors and it’s around $599 but I bet it’s so good you just do you own alignments and it’ll pay for itself in no time if you have a few cars or a project car like mine.

 

[802SHO]

Understanding my Gyraline body measurements now. The last measurement 0.3 toe in both wheels but a perfect center thrust angle was essentially the body error of the app detecting the forward angle of the car as not parallel but outward.

I took exact same body measurements on the bottom of the doors, crack between front and rear passenger door, center of the car. So when I ended up toe in 0.3 both sides to total toe 0.6 but a perfect straight thrust angle I noticed it’s bowed in that spot. I think it’s closer to 0.0 or 0.1.

Effective body side measurements are taken (learned now) on the rearward most side window glass bc it’s very straight.

Why I will not remeasure is I’m finding the 6 point quick align is King bc it shows total toe relative to all 4 wheels to each other and that mode doesn’t measure or care about taking body side measurements. So my end measurements of total toe 0.0 front and 0.1 rear are likely perfect.

I’m tempted to remeasure the glass body line but I’m more interested if my theory is correct. 0.3 toe in both rear wheels but straight thrust with body line error if it bowed outward is probably perfect 0.0-0.1.

I’ll test this as is.

 

[802SHO]

Quick follow up after last night’s test session.

Alignment still needs one more pass, but it is vastly improved already. Steering wheel is still slightly off to the left and I want to intentionally dial the front toe a little more for better high speed stability, but overall the car feels much more sane and planted now.

Transmission temp observations were interesting too. My Tinker Dash was consistently showing about 10 degrees lower than HP Tuners VCM Suite. Example, Tinker would show around 135 while VCM Scanner would show closer to 150. For now I am trusting VCM Suite since that is the actual logging source Ryan is using, but definitely interesting seeing the discrepancy between the 2 systems.

To get the trans temp up initially, I brake torqued it in Reverse off and on for a few minutes around 1400 to 1500 RPM. After that I started with 2 very slow test laps around the house at about 120 degrees trans temp, but by the time I got from my driveway to the end of our long shared driveway, it had already dropped back down to around 114. Honestly, even the small percentage the thermostat allows to circulate through the cooler seems potent because of the cooler efficiency and high-flow lines.

Last night’s goal was simple. Get the trans warm, verify no leaks, grab a steady state log and finally do a clean WOT hit for Ryan on Revision 4. This is still a very early infant calibration reflecting MAP scaling changes, dead system DTC cleanup and other foundational corrections. This was not a final tune flex session. This was data gathering.

Steady state log went great. Manual 3rd gear into 4th under moderate throttle. Car felt smooth, repeatable and most importantly no torque converter shudder whatsoever.

Then came the WOT test.

I let it naturally roll through the gears in D, found a clean straightaway and went WOT. Downshift into 2nd was smooth and violent in a good way. Car pulled hard through second but then hung up around the top of the gear around 6200 to 6400 RPM before finally shifting. I instinctively breathed the throttle slightly and then immediately rolled back into it. Pulled through 3rd, settled down into 4th and kissed 100 mph before bringing it back down to reality quickly with the 15 inch Rotora setup and forged 6/4 calipers.

Most important part of the entire session though was the data.

Pedal state showed WOT while throttle angle initially hit 100 percent and then immediately got chopped down and held around 40 percent for the remainder while pedal state still showed WOT request. That is exactly the type of information Ryan needed to see.

No knock. Zero. No torque converter shudder. No electrical power loss chaos. No leaks.

And honestly that matters more to me right now than a hero pull.

This is the first time in a long time the car is acting grounded enough that the logs actually mean something.

 

[Zpak]

Nice man, your diligence and patients are paying off. Hopefully all the electrical gremlins are in the rearview.

 

[802SHO]

Nice man, your diligence and patients are paying off. Hopefully all the electrical gremlins are in the rearview.

Thanks man! Yeah I think they are! No codes after that too.

 

[Jordan_R]

Not to derail this too much, but why reverse instead of drive? Im not at all questioning whether youre right, just curious.

Before he answers, I already noticed during initial fill and gear cycling that temps would always gain more in Reverse. Now it makes sense. The converter is slipping more under load in R which generates more heat and helps warm the fluid faster.

Pretty much this. It's got more load in reverse over first gear to make it move. It's mostly a trick I learned from a transmission building shop and kind of just ran with it.

 

[802SHO]

Funny realization after reviewing the logs and sending them to Ryan.

I am basically tuning this car in near sea level conditions here in Essex, VT. Roughly 350 feet elevation and usually pretty dense cool air.

That might not sound important until you think about what this setup actually is.

Twin turbo EcoBoost. Dense air. Very efficient airflow. Big fuel system. Free flowing setup. Cool ambient temps. And now finally the car is electrically stable enough for the PCM to actually trust what it is seeing.

Makes me wonder if part of the throttle closure we captured is simply the torque/load model getting smacked harder than expected on this infant base map because the car is making torque extremely efficiently even at moderate boost.

Which honestly is a pretty funny problem to finally have after the last 20 months

 

[802SHO]

I shared that DA info to Ryan because I think it absolutely matters here.

Finally had time to dig into the WOT log a little more and guys, these screenshots are actually really informative.

at around 4,954 RPM in 3rd gear, the big thing that jumps out is pedal state showed WOT, but throttle was only around 40 percent. Throttle angle was around 36 degrees and desired throttle angle matched. That means the PCM was not losing control or getting confused. It wanted that throttle angle.

Desired load was 1.43 and actual load was 1.435. That is huge. The PCM achieved the load target almost perfectly. In other words, the car was not struggling to make load. The PCM got exactly what it wanted and then controlled the throttle to maintain it.

That is not a car falling on its face. That is an actively managed car.

Then looking at torque, scheduled torque was around 435 lb ft, desired brake torque was around 369 lb ft and ETC torque request was around 369 lb ft. That looks like classic torque management logic. Driver demand says WOT, but the torque model says this is the allowed target right now, so the PCM shapes the throttle to hit that target.

Even better, knock was basically zero, wastegate duty cycle was basically zero, boost was only around 10 psi max and the car was already moving enough air to hit the modeled target. That supports the theory that this is not a turbo problem, not a fuel problem and not a mechanical unhappy problem. It looks like a clean modeled torque/load intervention.

Then at the tail end of the delayed 2-3 shift around 6400 RPM, the same pattern shows up again. Pedal state still showed WOT, throttle was still only around 40 percent, boost was actually down closer to around 8 psi, wastegate duty cycle was still basically zero, knock was still basically nothing and desired load again matched actual load almost perfectly.

That is the part that makes me think the PCM was in complete control the entire time. Desired load and actual load matching that closely is a giant clue. It was not confused. It was not chasing its tail. It was commanding a limit and the engine was obeying.

The hang at 6400 RPM looks less like the car falling apart and more like the PCM heavily managing torque while the shift logic was not immediately completing the 2-3 shift. Almost like the system was holding the car in a controlled torque-managed state until the shift finally agreed to happen. When I breathed the throttle slightly, it finally caught the next gear and I rolled back into it.

The wild part is this was all happening in dense cool Vermont air, near sea level, on an infant conservative base map, with corrected MAP scaling, stable voltage, cleaned up dead system DTC logic and a BOV that is actually working now.

So my current read is pretty simple.

This was not chaos. This was not the car randomly falling over.

This was the PCM saying nope, we are protecting the torque model and drivetrain, while the car was already hitting load targets very efficiently at basically wastegate spring pressure.

 

[802SHO]

Take a look at the initial throttle closure changes, pedal state, and timestamps.

Before this section of the log, I was around 40 mph in 4th and slammed the pedal to the floor. Interesting enough, during the massive downshift event, throttle angle went 100%, but pedal state still reported part throttle. The car went 4-3-2 and landed in 2nd gear around 2400 rpm. From there, pedal state finally reported WOT and throttle stayed 100% up until the moment shown here.

This is where the conversation between the PCM, engine, turbos, fuel system and drivetrain gets interesting.

The car basically said:
“Full send?”

Engine/turbos said:
“Already there.”

PCM said:
“Absolutely not.”

At 08:19:06.654 it is in 2nd gear around 4700 rpm, pedal state is WOT, throttle is still 100%, boost is roughly 10 to 11 psi, and the car is coming into load fast.

Then almost immediately, with pedal state still WOT, throttle starts getting yanked back. First into the 60% range, then down around the 40% range. That is the fence. The car hit it quickly and the PCM grabbed the leash hard.

That’s instantly basically! Time stamp is the same. That is why this log is exciting.

This was basically:
“Hello sir, this is Revision 4 base calibration on spring-ish boost in excellent air.”

And it still hit the fence hard enough for the PCM to intervene aggressively.

That is bad in all the best ways.

Not bad like broken.
Bad like the combo tried to drive through the calibration fence almost instantly and the PCM had to yank it back before it got stupid.

That is the right kind of problem.

 

[FrankK]

Andrew is there a table that shows scheduled torque? That sounds like a good place to start. If the schedule table is keeping torque low your behind the eight ball all ready.

 

[802SHO]

Andrew is there a table that shows scheduled torque? That sounds like a good place to start. If the schedule table is keeping torque low your behind the eight ball all ready.

Frank, I think you were absolutely on the right track

Looking closer through the channels, you can actually see the PCM actively in torque reduction mode here

Throttle Angle Source = Torque Reduction
Pedal State = WOT
Driver Demand Limit Source = No Limit
Scheduled Torque = 430 lb-ft
Desired Brake Torque / ETC Torque Request = 369 lb-ft

So the PCM is clearly intervening intentionally through ETC/throttle control rather than reacting to knock or a mechanical issue

What still isn’t fully clear yet is the exact trigger for the intervention Whether it was scheduled torque modeling, transient torque arrival rate during the 4-3-2 event, another torque limit strategy, or something else underneath the torque model logic still needs more investigation

 

[DadMobile]

So it still won’t shift after 6 tuners, 7 years and 10,000 posts about it. You switched every part on the car but the PCM. Multiple tuners came on here and explained why you need to change your PCM but CHATGPT told you otherwise.

too bad you can’t just give the car some blow and let her rip!

 

[DadMobile]

 

[802SHO]

I have rational, clear next steps now.

Ego was left on the garage floor back in September 2024 with coolant on the ground. Data guarded

We run wastegate spring pressure back as many times as needed.

After digging through the latest logs, my current theory on the torque reduction behavior despite not hitting scheduled torque is that the PCM is intervening because actual airflow/load behavior is outrunning or conflicting with the current torque/load model during aggressive transient events.

The logs consistently show:
- WOT pedal state
- Driver demand showing no limit
- Throttle source switching to Torque Reduction
- Actual Air Load exceeding Desired Load
- Clean knock activity
- Relatively modest boost levels

This does not look like a mechanical issue. It looks like a control/model synchronization issue.

I also revisited some old conversations with Brendan. A private self-taught tuner out of Canada. One thing he stressed hard from experience was that HP Tuners auto-populating the torque model/airflow scaling on these speed density motors is inaccurate and that the torque model and airflow/load scaling need to be manually increased together correctly as airflow capability increases.

So my explicit requests to Ryan are:
- Set shift RPM back around 6200 for now
- Manually scale torque model and airflow/load together
- Leave boost/output essentially where it is
- Run this back repeatedly until the PCM allows flawless repeatable multi-gear WOT pulls cleanly

No bonus rounds yet. No hero pulls. No chasing big boost numbers while the control model is still learning the hardware.

The goal right now is simple:
make the PCM and the hardware speak the same language consistently at wastegate spring pressure first.

The clock decides everything eventually anyway. Dragy is the final judge

 

[DadMobile]

Ffs just switch the PCM out and have a working car. Or just keep posting ai slop about how the PCM isn’t able to do what you’re asking it to do. You probably have $60k plus into this car but won’t switch out the PCM.

Your hitting yourself in the face with hammer for no reason other than some weird vendetta because a tuner didn’t answer your email fast enough.