Cranks but no start? troubleshooting continues

[boat]

Hey all,

Well before my head swap and front 60k, I started having this issue where it would not want to start sometimes, so I thought, okay, so I have a starter going out, no prob, I have a spare. I swapped the starter after my head swap and front 60k and it was still having this issue of not wanting to start sometimes. It has happened a couple of more times. I also noticed that sometimes when I go to start it the fuel pump doesn't sound right when it primes, it was replaced last summer with pump that had 5k miles on it from my other SHO. Also there have been times of chugging after it starts, then it smooths itself out to 900-1k RPM.

Monday, I come out from school go to start the SHO and all it will do is crank over but won't start. I could hear the fuel pump priming, and I could smell the fuel after a start attempt. So, I deducted I am not getting spark. Then had it towed to my garage.

I have swapped DIS's with a known good one and nothing changed. I have swapped coil packs with a known good one and nothing changed. I am ruling out the cam sensor and crank sensor, because I had the issue before the front 60k, and both of those sensors are new with the 60k. I have run the codes and all I get is 111 for both the current and stored codes.

So tonight, I start checking around measuring voltages and following a thread I found where someone had a similar problem. It recommended checking voltages in various locations.

I checked with the key on, the plug that goes to the coil pack, DIS plug on the left with the red/green wire, and had 12 volts. I checked from the battery to all the grounds I could get to and had 12 volts, the one at the firewall, the one on the core support, the one on the passenger fender all of them had the 12V. I checked at the starter, had 12 volts. All the starter connections were good and tight. The only thing I haven't been able to do is take some of these measurements with someone cranking it while I measure.

I suspect it is my CCRM code "D". I cannot possibly think of what else it could be.

Have I narrowed it down enough to say it is my CCRM? Anyone else have any inputs? I have searched some, but not extensively. I don't have spark, so, I have tried to check everything I can think of that would relate to not getting spark.

ANY IDEAS? CCRM?

I went to Ford today just to see if they could get a new one, here is the part number F6DZ-12B577-BA. The price is 101.00 to the tune of OBSOLETE. He told me to go to NAPA/Ridge, and they could get one, but it was like $150 bucks (looks for the vomit emoticon).

Anyone got one they might want to trade something for? The CCRM I need is code D.

 

[projectSHO89]

If your check engine light comes on when the key is turned to RUN and the fuel pump cycles, the CCRM is not at fault.

Most likely, your problem is the DIS grounding circuit or something related to the crank sensor if your problem is indeed "no spark".

 

[SHORANGERBIRD]

-boat,
the Ford guy can still get one from other dealers that have one on the shelf. so obsolete, yes, product depleted, no. i'd rather pay $101 for a Ford one, than $150 for an aftermarket one that will go out in 3 months, unless you do find a cheap used one....

 

[boat]

I will have to take a look and see what the CEL does when I turn the key to "run". But what about the times of the fuel pump sounding weak when I go to start it, when the fuel pump has maybe 10k miles on it? I am just asking some questions...

The DIS grounding circuit? Why all of the sudden would a ground just go bad? Start intermintently, then just altogether fail where the car won't get a spark? I know how I think that would happen, but anyone else have an opinion as to how that would happen? Where do I even start troubleshooting that circuit? Would someone have a schematic of the DIS grounding circuit?

If your check engine light comes on when the key is turned to RUN and the fuel pump cycles, the CCRM is not at fault.

Most likely, your problem is the DIS grounding circuit or something related to the crank sensor if your problem is indeed "no spark".

 

[boat]

He told me that not one dealer in the country had 1. Nothing came back as anyone having that CCRM. Unless you know of something I don't?

-boat,
the Ford guy can still get one from other dealers that have one on the shelf. so obsolete, yes, product depleted, no. i'd rather pay $101 for a Ford one, than $150 for an aftermarket one that will go out in 3 months, unless you do find a cheap used one....

 

[93rev2sev]

The DIS grounding circuit starts at the bottom 2 screws holding the DIS to the intake. Then, the ground path goes through the intake to the grounding strap. From there it's bolted to the firewall. This is where I would suspect a grounding path issue. That little 7mm sheet metal screw is definately the weak link in the path.

But back to the CCRM. If it's the problem, you can whack it with the handle of a hammer and your car may start. Then you know it's a simple replacement.

 

[Eric VerValin]

Well, I think the CCRM in my 92 may be why my fan isnt kicking on.... can't one of the relays be bad, and the others still work? Isn't that basically what the CCRM is? Several different relays all in one box?

 

[SHORANGERBIRD]

He told me that not one dealer in the country had 1. Nothing came back as anyone having that CCRM. Unless you know of something I don't?

-duh!....i hate lazy parts guys. tell him to use the old part # ...F3DZ-12B577-A.....

 

[rubydist]

I would not rule out the crank sensor - just because its nearly new does not mean it didn't crap out. Also, it could have come loose and gotten sucked down to the shutter and damaged. I have had bad cid w/o codes before, so its possible....

 

[SHObill]

Well, I think the CCRM in my 92 may be why my fan isnt kicking on.... can't one of the relays be bad, and the others still work? Isn't that basically what the CCRM is? Several different relays all in one box?

YES! its happened to me several times.
All MTX's should have an 'M' CCRM
All ATX's should have an 'J' CCRM- BUT can use a Mustang 'D' CCRM
CCRM's have relays for fuel pump, injectors, AC fan & AC clutch. I bought a new 'D' CCRM from TYSHO in Texas after replacing mine on the ATX with used 'J' units multiple times.
Like Tom said- when it happens again - smack it with the flat of your hand on top of the cover & see if she will restart.
- & always run a separate ground for the bottom 2 screws of the DIS to the strut tower to take that issue out of the equation!

 

[boat]

What about this? I should have said that my tach needle is moving when I try to start it.

I am ruling out the cam sensor and crank sensor, because I had the issue before the front 60k, and both of those sensors are new with this 60k.

I would not rule out the crank sensor - just because its nearly new does not mean it didn't crap out. Also, it could have come loose and gotten sucked down to the shutter and damaged. I have had bad cid w/o codes before, so its possible....

I measured between the path of the positive of the battery and the ground on the firewall, I had 12.4 volts with the car off. Should I be measuring while someone is starting the car?

The DIS grounding circuit starts at the bottom 2 screws holding the DIS to the intake. Then, the ground path goes through the intake to the grounding strap. From there it's bolted to the firewall. This is where I would suspect a grounding path issue. That little 7mm sheet metal screw is definately the weak link in the path.

But back to the CCRM. If it's the problem, you can whack it with the handle of a hammer and your car may start. Then you know it's a simple replacement.

He told me that number was the engineering number that they use to reference to the part number I used up at the top.

-duh!....i hate lazy parts guys. tell him to use the old part # ...F3DZ-12B577-A.....

ShoBill, my CCRM has a "CODE D" on it. So, maybe 93-95 MTX has the Code D?

 

[SHORANGERBIRD]

He told me that number was the engineering number that they use to reference to the part number I used up at the top.

thats the new number it changed to over the course of time. the old number was the original part # until it was superceded by the new F6DZ-BA. same part, different part number. its the Ford way....

 

[Eric VerValin]

ShoBill, my CCRM has a "CODE D" on it. So, maybe 93-95 MTX has the Code D?

Sounds like they used the 3.2 harness. Try the J and see what happens.. pull the one thats on that harness in the garage up there.. I think that should be a J.

 

[boat]

That's for a 93 automatic, besides from what I understood, that was something already spoken for between you and bubba. No, they used the 3.0 harness.

Sounds like they used the 3.2 harness. Try the J and see what happens.. pull the one thats on that harness in the garage up there.. I think that should be a J.

 

[Eric VerValin]

Eh.. spoken for.. lol I'd just try it to see since its sitting there. He did say all MTX's were the same... if thats the case.. you might be wrong on that harness. I dunno. Won't hurt to try it.

 

[boat]

True. I will try it then.

Eh.. spoken for.. lol I'd just try it to see since its sitting there. He did say all MTX's were the same... if thats the case.. you might be wrong on that harness. I dunno. Won't hurt to try it.

My apologies if I came off like a **** in my responses. No place for that. I was in a pretty ****** off mood when I wrote that.

Anyhow, I did try a few things. I checked to see the CEL did not go out when the key was turned to run, and the fuel pump does prime. However, I did notice the CEL go out when I tried to start it again (I have never really paid attention to what the CEL does when the car is started). I also attempted the tapping on the CCRM, but it did not change anything.

I have some help coming tomorrow evening to help me "crank" or attempt to start the car while I take some measurements. Can anyone suggest specific points to measure while someone would crank the SHO over? For the electrical system on this car, I don't know that well, what wires (colors and location) do what and exactly where to measure them. I am going to check the DIS grounding system. But what other areas do I check now?

It seems like it may not be my CCRM, so I am looking for some guidance here.

 

[boat]

Okay here is an update.

I went through and ohm’d out every path in the ignition path and the ignition ground path as well, from the coil pack, to the DIS, to the crank sensor, cam sensor, and then all of these items as they go into the main PCM harness connector. All paths checked out good with no open circuits. I used the below schematic from the Ford Service Manual disc.

I also checked my DIS grounding path. Following the below schematic. And everything there tested as a good path.

I was waiting on some help to arrive, so I decided to verify my fuel pressure, it was at 38 psi. I remember there was a wire I could see bare while I was putting my engine back together after doing the head swap and front 60k, so I re-wrapped that in some electrical tape. I fixed my ground connection to my battery the smaller of the 2 wires looked like it was going to come out of the terminal that goes to the battery negative terminal.

I also took my crossover tube from the intake and put it on my other SHO with the DIS on it and that DIS started the other SHO fine. DIS is ruled out as culprit.

So, help arrives (Bubba) (someone to crank the key while I measure)

Just for kicks, I decided to attempt to start it before the deeper troubleshooting began. Wouldn’t you know it, my SHO started. :woo-hoo: it was running kinda funny, it was chugging a little and the exhaust smelled a little funny. We noticed the RPMs were just sticking around 1200 rpm and not adjusting, so we unplug the IAC to see what would happen, the SHO quit running, which I am thinking that was supposed to happen. After that we couldn’t get it to restart. So it ran for all of about a 1 minute, so it does definitely have spark

I started following the below troubleshooting diagnostics from the Service Manual disc after it wouldn’t restart. See below:

VREF at TP sensor was 4.98V

We HAD spark because the car ran on its own for about 1 minute, but had a slight chugging, and the RPM was hanging at 1200 rpm. We unplugged the IAB and the car stopped running, but would not restart.

Didn’t have the break out box, but had the PCM harness disconnected from PCM, had my multimeter measuring between pins 16 and 56 of the PCM harness and had 5 volts when the car ran briefly with out the PCM for a few seconds.

This time I measured continuity, I checked the resistance and it was around 2.4 ohms or less.

Went to the next step measured again between pins 16 and 56 of the PCM harness and had 5 volts when the car ran briefly with out the PCM for a few seconds again.

So, does this really mean I need another PCM? Can the PCM fail and not give any codes when it does? The only codes I had were 111. I will go back and see if there are any new codes.

I heard the CCRM relay clicking while Bubba was trying to start it, so that can definitely can be ruled out now as being the problem. One thing was suggested was to maybe swap out the TPS sensor, and/or the IAB. I do want to try those 2 things before I go and swap the PCM out. Is it possible for the IAB or the TPS to give a no start condition but would allow the engine to crank?

 

[rubydist]

The crank no-start and/or crank hard-start and tach issues are also indicative of a bad cam sensor - the cam sensor is used to tell the pcm when to fire which coil. I would suggest swapping that over to another SHO to confirm its condition.

 

[boat]

The tach is moving when I attempted to start it and the car did run, relatively smooth but chugging a little bit. I can swap it out and see what happens. The cam sensor was new when I put it in for my most recent 60k. I had the problem beginning to happen before I changed the cam sensor and all of the wires in the ignition system path all checked good for continuity.

The crank no-start and/or crank hard-start and tach issues are also indicative of a bad cam sensor - the cam sensor is used to tell the pcm when to fire which coil. I would suggest swapping that over to another SHO to confirm its condition.

 

[93rev2sev]

New best guess since it ran after sitting for a while...Injector leak or stuck open (more likely)....If you smelled gas in the exhaust when it was running...It could be flooding...and you WERE in there when you did the head swap.

You let it sit for a while and the pool of fuel evaporated...that's why it started. Try starting it with the gas pedal to the floor.