True Dual Exhuast vs. Straights vs. Mufflers

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Izzmo

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I've been wondering about this for years as I don't think anyone has really ever fully discussed the question besides saying our engines need a certain amount of back pressure given by mufflers.

What exactly are the differences in power and sound regarding putting on true dual exhuaust vs. straights (with y-pipe) vs. using mufflers (without cats)?
 

jonheese

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EDIT: I wrote this description assuming that we were talking about the V6 engine (didn't pay attention to parent forum). Things are a little different with the V8 engine... Specifically the part about the firing order. The V8 is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, so it's right-left-right-right-left-right-left-left.

The engine fires a cylinder from each bank alternatingly, moving from front to back (or passenger to driver, since it's FWD) down the engine, so the exhaust pulses alternate from one header to the other as the engine runs. By connecting the two banks together at the y-pipe, the pulses can "suck" each other down the exhaust pipe.

Here's a VERY simplified example to illustrate this: Cyl1 exhausts, and thus sends an exhaust pulse into the header, into the collector, and it travels down to the Y junction. (Let's say that) at that moment, the Cyl4 exhaust valve opens, and the exhaust pulse from Cyl1 passes the Y, creating a low pressure zone in the other side of the Y, which pulls the exhaust out of Cyl4 a little quicker and more efficiently. Likewise, when the exhaust pulse from Cyl4 reaches the junction of the Y, Cyl2 is in the exhaust stroke, and the low pressure switches to the rear header, pulling the exhaust gases out of Cyl2 more efficiently. And so on and so forth.

At different RPMs, everything's moving at different speeds and the timing might vary a little bit, but that's the theory at least. It's one element of the concept called exhaust scavenging. This is why it's important (and beneficial) to have each bank of the y-pipe be an equal length.

If you have a true dual exhaust, meaning each bank of exhaust never joins the other bank of exhaust, you will lose this scavenging effect and the engine will have to use more of it's power to push the exhaust out of the cylinder, thus decreasing overall power.

DISCLAIMER: This is all theory. I have no empirical evidence in the SHO engines to prove that true duals decrease power output, nor can I claim any specific numbers for how much power is lost without a y-pipe.

Muffs vs. no muffs is a totally different concept, and I can't say anything theoretical about that. Empirical tests would be the best way to show power gain or loss there.
 
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greengiant

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kirks 5spd gen3 is running cats (hi flow?) and nothing else. it sounds amazing, as for power its probably better because it's kirk and i'm sure he did it to make the most out of it. there was a clip on nesho.com of him doing a burnout at carlise with it and you can hear it pretty good.
 

Izzmo

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I always thought it had something to do with the pressure differences. That makes sense and I can see how that works.

So, this theory of straight pipes aren't good.. what's that? I have heard mine with no cats and mufflers and it sounds amazing and if anything, I think I get more power out of the engine.. any people to deduce this?
 

jonheese

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Here are some explanations of back pressure and why it may be good or bad (non-specific to the SHO engines).

From http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/sue462/backpressuretorquemyth.htm:

Some say that "an engine needs backpressure to work correctly." Is this true?

No. It would be more correct to say, "a perfectly stock engine that cannot adjust its fuel delivery needs backpressure to work correctly." This idea is a myth. As with all myths, however, there is a hint of fact with this one. Particularly, some people equate backpressure with torque, and others fear that too little backpressure will lead to valve burning.

The first reason why people say "backpressure is good" is because they believe that increased backpressure by itself will increase torque, particularly with a stock exhaust manifold. Granted, some stock manifolds act somewhat like performance headers at low RPM, but these manifolds will exhibit poor performance at higher RPM. This, however does not automatically lead to the conclusion that backpressure produces more torque. The increase in torque is not due to backpressure, but to the effects of changes in fuel/air mixture, which will be described in more detail below.

The other reason why people say "backpressure is good" is because they hear that cars (or motorcycles) that have had performance exhaust work done to them would then go on to burn exhaust valves. Now, it is true that such valve burning has occurred as a result of the exhaust mods, but it isn't due merely to a lack of backpressure.

The internal combustion engine is a complex, dynamic collection of different systems working together to convert the stored power in gasoline into mechanical energy to push a car down the road. Anytime one of these systems are modified, that mod will also indirectly affect the other systems, as well.

Now, valve burning occurs as a result of a very lean-burning engine. In order to achieve a theoretical optimal combustion, an engine needs 14.7 parts of oxygen by mass to 1 part of gasoline (again, by mass). This is referred to as a stochiometric (chemically correct) mixture, and is commonly referred to as a 14.7:1 mix. If an engine burns with less oxygen present (13:1, 12:1, etc...), it is said to run rich. Conversely, if the engine runs with more oxygen present (16:1, 17:1, etc...), it is said to run lean. Today's engines are designed to run at 14.7:1 for normally cruising, with rich mixtures on acceleration or warm-up, and lean mixtures while decelerating.

Getting back to the discussion, the reason that exhaust valves burn is because the engine is burning lean. Normal engines will tolerate lean burning for a little bit, but not for sustained periods of time. The reason why the engine is burning lean to begin with is that the reduction in backpressure is causing more air to be drawn into the combustion chamber than before. Earlier cars (and motorcycles) with carburetion often could not adjust because of the way that backpressure caused air to flow backwards through the carburetor after the air already got loaded down with fuel, and caused the air to receive a second load of fuel. While a bad design, it was nonetheless used in a lot of vehicles. Once these vehicles received performance mods that reduced backpressure, they no longer had that double-loading effect, and then tended to burn valves because of the resulting over-lean condition. This, incidentally, also provides a basis for the "torque increase" seen if backpressure is maintained. As the fuel/air mixture becomes leaner, the resultant combustion will produce progressively less and less of the force needed to produce torque.

Modern BMWs don't have to worry about the effects described above, because the DME (car's computer) that controls the engine will detect that the engine is burning leaner than before, and will adjust fuel injection to compensate. So, in effect, reducing backpressure really does two good things: The engine can use work otherwise spent pushing exhaust gas out the tailpipe to propel the car forward, and the engine breathes better. Of course, the DME's ability to adjust fuel injection is limited by the physical parameters of the injection system (such as injector maximum flow rate and fuel system pressure), but with exhaust backpressure reduction, these limits won't be reached.

- Adapted from Thomas V.

From http://http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/4452/Exhaust_Backpressure_explanation.pdf
So, what is backpressure? Any fluid flowing through a pipe experiences drag on the walls of the pipe. This depends on a number of factors, including the diameter of the pipe, the smoothness of the inside of the pipe, the viscosity of the fluid, and the velocity of the fluid. This drag results in a pressure drop through the pipe. In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other. In an exhaust system, that pressure drop is what we refer to as backpressure. It's pretty obvious that the engine has to produce this pressure differential, so the less power it has to spend making pressure to push the exhaust out, the more power it can send to the wheels.

Given that exhaust pipes are pretty smooth, and that we can't change the viscosity (thickness) of the waste gas being forced through the pipes, we are left with basically 2 parameters we can have any control over: The pipe diameter and the gas velocity.

Unfortunately, the pipe diameter controls the gas velocity since the volume of gas is prescribed by the engine. So, we really only have one thing we can change. So, bigger pipes allow less pressure drop for a given volume of gas because the velocity is lower. The pressure drop (backpressure increase) is proportional the gas velocity squared, so if I double the gas velocity (by reducing the cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe by half) then I quadruple the pressure drop.

Well, there's an easy solution for that: Just make the exhaust pipe bigger. Bigger pipe, lower gas velocity, less pressure drop, so less backpressure. Wow, that was easy. After all, this is the way it's done for basically any type of commercial plumbing system. Need less pressure drop on a chilled water pipe or a natural gas line? Just make the pipe bigger.

But wait, there's a problem....Having a huge exhaust pipe has killed my low end torque!!! What's different? Oh, there's no backpressure!! Therefore backpressure makes torque!

Wrong.

An exhaust system is different than just about any other plumbing situation. How? Because the flow is pulsed, and this turns out to be a big deal. Every time a pulse of exhaust gas runs through the pipe, a strange thing happens: it as it passes, it has a little area of vacuum behind it. Just like a NASCAR stocker running around the track, the pulse generates a little bit of a vacuum behind it. In NASCAR, a driver can take advantage of another driver's vacuum by getting right behind him and driving in it. The wind resistance is drastically reduced. This is called drafting.

Well, how big the vacuum behind each pules is depends on the gas velocity. The higher the velocity, the bigger the vacuum the pulse has behind it.

Now, this means that I can "draft" the next pulse, just like in NASCAR. In NASCAR, it's called drafting, in an exhaust system, it's called scavenging. You've probably seen this term used when talking about headers, but the same concept applies in the pipe.

I get the maximum scavenging effect if the gas velocity is high, so the pipe needs to be small. By maximizing the scavenging effect, I help to pull pulses out of the combustion chamber, which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard to do that.

This has the most effect when there's a bunch of time between pulses...in other words, at low rpm. As the revs rise, the pulsed flow becomes more and more like constant flow, and the scavenging effect is diminished.

So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. My exhaust pipe can only be one size, so it's a compromise. For a given engine, one pipe diameter will make the most overall power (i.e., have the largest area under the curve on a dyno chart).

So, the loss of torque has nothing to do with backpressure, and everything to do with gas velocity. So you need exhaust components that are not restricive (manifolds/headers, mufflers) and that are sized correctly for your application.

To further dispel the "backpressure is necessary" theory, try this if you want. If you have access to a vehicle with open headers, make a block off plate that will bolt to the collector. This plate should have only a 1" hole in it for the exhaust to flow through. That will give you PLENTY of backpressure, and zero scavenging. Then you can report back on how much low end power it has.

The one exception to sizing an exhaust is for turbo cars. Since the turbo is in the exaust stream, the gas flow spinning the impeller tends to come out of the turbo with the pulses greatly diminished. In this case, you can get away with running a larger pipe than on an equivalent HP N/A engine because you can't take as much advantage of the scavenging effect.

From http://www.magnaflow.com/07techtips/faq/question10.asp:
Question: Why ISN'T a bigger pipe always better?

Answer: Don't be fooled! Bigger is not better! Many people think that having the biggest diameter pipe is the best way to make power.
Not true. Due to a variety of factors, extensive testing is required. We've dyno'd extensively and our systems yield optimum power increases. Some manufacturers claim even higher horsepower numbers.

It is a fine line to reduce backpressure while maintaining good exhaust velocity. It is not about getting the biggest pipe, it is about getting a more efficient pipe diameter while maintaining exhaust velocity.

There has to be a balanced design to enhance the maximum engine output, exhaust gas velocity, and sound. For example, imagine blowing air through a straw (comparing it to a smaller diameter pipe). This would take time to release all the air from your mouth, and you would feel pressure in your mouth while doing so. Now imagine blowing air through a paper towel roll (comparing it to a larger diameter pipe). You will relieve all your air much faster and feel little or no air pressure in your mouth because of the larger capacity of the tube. This is why it is important to get the correct size piping in order to relieve backpressure while maintaining thermal efficiency.
See the link above for a table of engine size vs. horsepower vs. muffler inlet/outlet
 
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Izzmo

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That explains a lot, but specific to our engines... the mufflers do not effect the back pressure, correct? Meaning.. it would not affect engine performance to have a muffler or not?
 

jonheese

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That explains a lot, but specific to our engines... the mufflers do not effect the back pressure, correct? Meaning.. it would not affect engine performance to have a muffler or not?
Of course a muffler would affect backpressure (and thus probably affect performance). Why would you think otherwise?

More restriction = more backpressure.
 

slowshow

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You can put a cross over pipe in a true dual system. That will help with scavenging. That way you still get true dual (for whatever reason you want it in a SHO) and benefit from the y. Many performance vehicles have true dual from the factory. And all of them have a cross over pipe. Straight pipe from each manifold without a cross over is not for everyday street cars with little to no modification. The physics above tells why.
 

jonheese

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Aha... So "true dual" just means that the two banks are never forced down the same pipe, then? As in, the single pipe between the front Y and the rear Y (where the resonator/3rd cat is)?
 

slowshow

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Has anyone tried a true dual on a GenIII SHO? Naturally aspirated, of course. Forget about cats and muffler deletes, etc. Just wanting to know. I believe a true dual with high flow cats and performance mufflers with 2.25" - 2.5" piping, a custom intake, and a tune would do just fine for this car. But I could be wrong, have been once or twice...!!!
 

slowshow

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Corvette, 350Z and most V-6 Nissans, Mustang, (missing everal others) all have factory dual. GM F bodies (trans am, camaro, etc.) are all single, usually with a single in dual out muffler. Many, if not all, FWD cars have y design, meaning both manifolds come together for a single pipe, then break off into two, whether it be before or after the muffler. Actuall, not sure I have ever seen FWD with true dual...? Any takers on that?! But they implement a y design identical to that of our SHO's.
 

Izzmo

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Has anyone tried a true dual on a GenIII SHO? Naturally aspirated, of course. Forget about cats and muffler deletes, etc. Just wanting to know. I believe a true dual with high flow cats and performance mufflers with 2.25" - 2.5" piping, a custom intake, and a tune would do just fine for this car. But I could be wrong, have been once or twice...!!!
Yes, search v8sho.com for it. (and SHOForum.com too I think..)
 

slowshow

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Haha, tried. Way too much stuff to filter through. Maybe not searching right, but nothing on dual exhaust...
 

notbange

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Corvette, 350Z and most V-6 Nissans, Mustang, (missing everal others) all have factory dual. GM F bodies (trans am, camaro, etc.) are all single, usually with a single in dual out muffler. Many, if not all, FWD cars have y design, meaning both manifolds come together for a single pipe, then break off into two, whether it be before or after the muffler. Actuall, not sure I have ever seen FWD with true dual...? Any takers on that?! But they implement a y design identical to that of our SHO's.

New Pontiac GTOs are true dual. The GM 3.6 DOHC as put into the FWD/AWD Suzuki XL7 (and whatever other Chevy Equinox based SUVs that have the 3.6) also have a true dual exhaust for some reason. There are two seperate pipes run into a single muffler, which then exit into twin pipes again.
 

warmonger

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theres a member on here with true dauls on a black(?) gen3
back pressure is not good for performance...period.
 

SHOZ123

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Opening the exhaust to a large extent will hurt performance unless you can tune for it.

I went and had what I thought was a 2.5" straight pipe put in and then 3" over the rear suspension with a 3" muffler. It sucked as they put in a piece of 2". But by the time I was done tuning the MAF for that the car was much faster off the line. Just ran out of steam at 120 mph or so.

Went back and had them put in 3" to the factory bends then 3" out the back. tuned that and got the top end back. Lost the extra low end pull though.
 
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