worsening powerloss in a 95 ATX, CEL's and symptoms inside

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
Hey all, I'm a long-time member of SHOcago, but due to their downtime, I'm in need of some help for my Fiance's car.

I owned a 93 ATX with 190K on it when I sold it back in 06 *I did a full upper 60K to it at 178K, new plugs/wires, and a buncha other stuff, but didn't adjust the valve lash as it was acceptable at the time and I didn't have the tools*, its engine found its way into a blue 95 ATX that had kicked the bucket at only 125K.
I purchased this blue car last november with minor front end damage, a C+L MAF, and a Superchips LPM. I pulled the MAF and put the stocker on, and pulled out the superchip, replaced the hood and radiator and drove it home (Had power at this point in time, wasn't a real screamer, but could get out of its own way just fine)

We did an oilchange on it shortly after buying it, and noticed within the first month of ownership that it was having 'consistency' issues with its power *would surge* and it was getting maybe 8-10mpg. Late last month we pulled the dash to find the CEL bulb had become unplugged *probably from the accident, the car was basically $350, so its not like they were hiding anything* and then found CEL's for the EGR, "Bank 2 running lean" and "No Knock sensor"

I replaced the knock sensor, and checked to make sure the EGR 'nostrils' in the Intake manifold were clean *they were*

Checked codes again, and still no knock sensor, and it was starting to have trouble getting up hills without flooring it...

This past weekend, I did basically a full tune-up *Wires were shot anyways* so new motorcraft OEM plugs, new wires *Under warranty, woot*, and I replaced the rear *Bank2* O2 sensor just incase. After pulling the plugs I could see that the rear bank was defiantly running lean, and the front rich.
I also dug back into the valley and found a ground in it completely coasted in rust and corrosion, so I filed/sanded it all down to bare metal again, and covered the wire again *part of it was bare through the protection, but since its a ground I don't think that would be an issue* to ensure it would be grounded out well.

Car now is behaving a bit better *previously when coming up to stoplights, the car when downshifting to first would PULL (as in the auto just changing back to first gear while coming up to a stoplight for example) scaring my fiance quite a bit, it no longer does this any more, and can make it back up hills, but still feels REALLY anemic (my stock automatic 07 ford focus is easily twice as fast)

This morning I got a phonecall from my Fiance that the cars tach wasn't working, and another shortly after when she was getting gas that the car didn't want to start back up. She checked the connection on some plugs, and it started up after a few more tries (still with no tach). She works at autozone and is having the car scanned again after work (since we haven't scanned it since the new plugs/wires/O2)

If she comes home still with 'no knock sensor' 'bank 2 lean' and 'EGR' codes still, where should I start? What would be CRUSHING the power of the car as badly as it is? Geo Metro's are blowing her doors off....

my 93 ATX had a catless Y-pipe, the car has a catted Y-Pipe on it now. (clogged cats?)

*to people replying to this, my 93 ATX with this SAME engine in it, had no problem spinning its tires from a standstill in the dry, the 95 ATX that its in now *this same engine*, cannot spin the tires in the rain WOT around a turn, and this is not an exaggeration.*
 

1993MTXSHO

Its a Taurus...
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
4,720
Reaction score
330
Location
Jersey
Id check the 02's that may be part of the problem with the bad mileage and bad power, and if they don't give the right readings for each bank can screw things up pretty bad. Also the knock sensor, is probably fine, I believe the computer will not check the knock sensor if the car is not warmed up to operating temp. When you checked codes was the car at full operating temp?
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
Thank you for the quick reply!

I know the rear 'front' O2 is good, since I just replaced it, but I can't be sure on the rest.

She just called me a moment ago with key on, engine off codes:

116
136
237
176
212
214

I know 2 of them are 'system running lean' codes, and one is "CID circuit failure or grounded", and ones the EGR code, what about the rest?
 
Last edited:

1993MTXSHO

Its a Taurus...
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
4,720
Reaction score
330
Location
Jersey
Thank you for the quick reply!

I know the rear 'front' O2 is good, since I just replaced it, but I can't be sure on the rest.

She just called me a moment ago with key on, engine off codes:

116
136
237
176
212
214

I know 2 of them are 'system running lean' codes, and one is "CID circuit failure or grounded", and ones the EGR code, what about the rest?

http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/code3.htm
 

FREAK_SHO

SHO Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
1,190
Reaction score
591
Location
Wisconsin
116 Out of range Engine coolant temperature sensor (ECT) Normal operating temp not reached
136 Lambda sensor (left) mixture lean
237 Ignition Coil (IGC)
176 Lambda sensor (left) too lean
212 Tach, circuit, SPOUT grounded. SPOUT circuit, open circuit
214 CID circuit failure

Looks like a Cam Sensor failure, bad O2(s) and a possible coil failure. I'd start with the
O2(s) and Cam Sensor and see what that gets you.
 

Bizzy

SHO Member
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
13,222
Reaction score
1,462
Keep in mind that if the car was not at normal operating temps that you can get a false 02 sensor error. It would seem to me that this is probably the case since you also have the engine coolant sensor code. If in the driveway, it's always best to let it run for 5-10 minutes and then run the codes. You will probably want to clear the codes, drive the car around for a bit and then re-run the codes.
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
I suspect the code 237 is wrong (she read them off to me 116, 136, 237, 176)

so I suspect its 137, which is a rich code, ala car not warmed up also.

She called me again maybe 2 hours ago after lunch, and said the car didnt wanna start again, but as it was, it was backfiring LOUDLY, until it started, she said it back fired briefly once as she started driving it, and it was VERY loud, and after which it felt the car had more power *shrugs*

I've read that clogged cats will destroy mileage and hurt power, can it hurt it starting up also? (I think we are gonna have the cats hacked off and weld in straight-pipes in their place tomorrow night)

I'm glad if nothing else the knock sensor code is gone now that the ground was cleaned off.

I'll have her clear the codes when I get home, we will then let it warm up, and check the codes again. Thanks for the quick responses everyone, I had no idea how active these boards are!
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
I am also a bit baffled why the O2 codes are still only for one side regardless of engine temp.
 

Phoenix

SHOHOLIC
Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
3,767
Reaction score
1,646
Location
QC , Canada
First off , O2s will NEVER cause any drivability or starting issues. You may have a failed O2 , but it will not cause all this , at worst you'll get a poor millage.

My bets are on the Coil - Cam sensor - DIS
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
I have tried my spare DIS module on the car with no differences.

I know its been gone over a thousand times, but how hard is it to replace the cam sensor, and how expensive is it? (And does autozone carry it, and if so can someone give me a part #?) and how expensive is a coil pack, and where can I get another?

I know the cam sensor can **** the tach, but usually that would pitch a CEL for the cam sensor IIRC? Also, this problem has been progressively getting worse for the past 4-5 months, in my experience SHO sensors 'start' to go bad, and then fizzle shortly afterwards and don't linger for 5 months before completely failing IIRC.
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
Another thing I forgot to mention is the car has a 'fast idle' and won't drop revs when in park even when warm, but not in drive.

So for example, if you goose the throttle while the car is in park, it will take a fairly long time for the revs to drop, and they will stay at 2000, or 1500, You put the car in Drive, and it drops right back down to where its supposed to be. Doesnt have any issues holding idle, or having a high idle when at stoplights or any other time, just when in park (I'd imagine neutral as well?)
 

Bizzy

SHO Member
Joined
May 1, 2001
Messages
13,222
Reaction score
1,462
Lack of power can be caused by clogged cats. It actually can be a dangerous condition because the cats can get so hot that it can cause the car to catch fire. What you can do is after dark run the car in the driveway for awhile and then take a peak underneath the car. If you see a glowing red, that'll be your cats. Turn the car off and drive the car as little as possible until you can get it repaired.

A cam sensor problem can cause a hard starting condition along with some backfiring. I don't think it would cause an idle issue, but I don't say that with any certainty.

Run the car around the block a time or two after you clear the codes, recheck them and post them up. We'll try to help you out.

Word to the wise, hit or miss repair jobs can be an expensive adventure. With all hopes we'll help you get your car running 100% again soon.
 

1993MTXSHO

Its a Taurus...
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
4,720
Reaction score
330
Location
Jersey
yeah, o2's will not cause starting issues as they are not used for startup because they are not hot enough to give readings. Also as far as cam sensor and coil pack, pm me I have a bunch laying around that came off good running engines if you don't want to dish out the cost of new stuff. The cam sensor won't take to long to change being an atx, it took me about an hour 2 tops, but I'm a skinny sob so I have nice long skinny fingers to get in places so that might be what made it easier for me.

Also mods, I do have a parts ad, not trying to put one over on the forum;)
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=76780

Heres a good guide to help you replace the cam sensor, also FWIW all i did was remove the battery and the PS overflow to get back to the cam sensor, I didn't remove the crossover tube or anything:thumb:.

http://www.shophoenixproject.com/lower60k/lower60k.htm

EDIT: If you want to buy new stuff and not go used, here's a good place, they usually get stuff out fast, and I never had any problems with them:cool:

http://www.rcmautomotive.com/id15.html
 
Last edited:

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
I just got off work and drove to her work to pick the car up. I jiggled the cam sensor wire, and the Tach came back, the car still didn't wanna start, but it got going *didn't back fire on me when I started it*

IAC, and Cam sensor should clear it up. Cam sensor should be able to be had at AZ for about $30 IIRC. IAC, you should have a spare no?

- James

just to clarify, IAC is NOT related to the power issue, correct?

Also, can the cam sensor really **** your power that badly?, I'm gonna be honest here, its all kinds of ****** as far as power goes right now after driving it home. Also, my Fiance cannot locate the cam sensor at AZ, nor can I find it on their website surprisingly, who else sells them for a decent price?


Lack of power can be caused by clogged cats. It actually can be a dangerous condition because the cats can get so hot that it can cause the car to catch fire. What you can do is after dark run the car in the driveway for awhile and then take a peak underneath the car. If you see a glowing red, that'll be your cats. Turn the car off and drive the car as little as possible until you can get it repaired.

I will check after dark tonight, I recall my friend had this same issue, but didn't have the powerloss that this car is suffering from.

A cam sensor problem can cause a hard starting condition along with some backfiring. I don't think it would cause an idle issue, but I don't say that with any certainty.

I suspect the idle issue is un-related to the power loss problem as it only occurs when the car is in park.

Run the car around the block a time or two after you clear the codes, recheck them and post them up. We'll try to help you out.

Word to the wise, hit or miss repair jobs can be an expensive adventure. With all hopes we'll help you get your car running 100% again soon.

Yea, hit-miss repairs suck and cost more money than I like to spend on a sub $500 car...


yeah, o2's will not cause starting issues as they are not used for startup because they are not hot enough to give readings. Also as far as cam sensor and coil pack, pm me I have a bunch laying around that came off good running engines if you don't want to dish out the cost of new stuff. The cam sensor won't take to long to change being an atx, it took me about an hour 2 tops, but I'm a skinny sob so I have nice long skinny fingers to get in places so that might be what made it easier for me.

What kind of CEL's was the car throwing when you replaced the cam sensor?
 

Dasfinc

New Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Location
Warrenville
Alrighty, Car is warm, so I pulled codes again:

it spewed

327
327 *EGR, I don't care :p

176 Lambda sensor (left) too lean

212 Tach, circuit, SPOUT grounded. SPOUT circuit, open circuit

214 CID circuit failure

Car runs the EXACT same with the cam sensor unplugged, but it does start on the first try usually, and with it plugged in the tach works.

This is probably an idiotic question, but does the cam sensor play a large roll in the timing and ignition systems of the car, and not just starting?
 

St Louis SHO

Rollin' coal
Joined
Nov 16, 2006
Messages
4,620
Reaction score
2,822
Location
0 .· ` ' / ·. 150
Cam sensor controls fuel. If it is running without cam signal (yes people it can/will run) it will be pig rich. If it is rich, ecspecially for long periods of time, the cats will be ruined. So keep that in mind. What I would start with as of now is (without being able to put my hands on the car)

1. Cam sensor
2. Loosen y-pipe at manifold and see if car has more power
3. IAC - or check for vacuum leaks (for your Idle problem)

I take it that removing the thread sealant from the knock sensor cured that for you?

- James
 

Forum statistics

Threads
107,100
Messages
1,181,414
Members
16,164
Latest member
Brad kirk

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top