water/meth inj. help with n02?

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Sho Amo

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i know that people use water and methanol injection to help cool the air charge with boost, but would it help with nitrous? i want to run a large shot of nitrous without changing pistons (along with bigger injectors, fpr, fuel pump, and a tweecer.)

Edit: meaning i WILL have the injectors and stuff.
 
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40BelowSummer

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http://www.dragracermag.com/content/view/86/30/

Nitrous Knowledge: Presented by Nitrous Supply
Tech Tips from the Innovator of Nitrous Oxide Injection


Written by Mike Thermos
Making More Power with Water?

"How compatible are nitrous oxide and water injection?" That is currently the most asked question on the Nitrous Supply tech line. Because of that, I'm dedicating this month's entire column to nitrous and water injection.

For starters, nitrous oxide injection and water injection are very compatible because one enhances and complements the other. In fact, the addition of water injection to your nitrous setup is currently the most logical, most efficient, most economical solution to improved nitrous efficiencies, eventually leading to increased power.

Based on my more than 25 years of experience in researching, developing and perfecting nitrous oxide injection it is a proven fact that only "things" that burn can produce horsepower - "things" that don't burn do not make horsepower. So, the obvious question here is, "How can adding a water-injection system to my nitrous setup make any additional horsepower as water does not burn?" Very true! But, a water injection unit does create improved efficiencies that, ultimately, help your nitrous system produce additional power. Basically, here is the way it works: To make more horsepower we know we have to burn more fuel, so we introduce more fuel into the engine. But, to burn the additional fuel you need to bring in more nitrous. More nitrous comes from the simple installation of bigger jets. But, by burning more fuel, cylinder pressure increases dramatically, while also creating much more heat. With more heat in the cylinder the need arises to get rid of it before it starts to cause detonation of the fuel and/or before it soaks into all of the major components, like the heads, the block and the pistons. An engine gets rid of its heat by transferring heat through the heads, block and pistons into the water jackets and, ultimately, into the radiator. However, most of the heat is dispersed through the exhaust. Consequently, it makes logical sense to introduce something into the engine that will become part of the exhaust process and dissipate heat quickly. That "something" is water injected into an engine by an efficient water-injection unit.

For more on water injection and its compatibility with nitrous oxide, I've enlisted the expertise of Matt Snow of Snow Performance. Snow Performance is currently recognized as the leader in water-injection technology and specializes in producing high quality, power efficient, water-methanol injection systems. According to Matt Snow, the biggest benefit of combining water-methanol injection with nitrous oxide is you can run full timing with increased amounts of nitrous and not have to worry about "hot pockets" or detonation. Water-methanol injection can also increase engine efficiencies in terms of miles per gallon, in addition to producing more power. According to Matt, water-methanol injection and nitrous oxide are the perfect 1-2 combination for producing additional, efficient horsepower. When water-methanol injection is combined with nitrous oxide more fuel can be burned, more nitrous can be used, and more power is created. While detonation is minimized, timing does not have to be ********, combustion is slowed down (similar to the effect of using high-octane fuel) and cylinder pressure and heat are controlled. Basically, with a Snow water-methanol injection system your nitrous setup will become much more efficient, while ultimately, producing much more power.

So, the answer is, yes, water injection is very compatible with nitrous oxide and should be combined with any/all nitrous setups for the ultimate in efficient power gains.
Google rocks...
 

AREA 91

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i know that people use water and methanol injection to help cool the air charge with boost, but would it help with nitrous? i want to run a large shot of nitrous without changing pistons (along with bigger injectors, fpr, fuel pump, and a tweecer.)

Edit: meaning i WILL have the injectors and stuff.

Inject your heart out Andrew, you still won't be faster than me!:rocky:

J/K
 

yamahaSHO

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There are a few very untrue statements in that write up .... timing is one of them.
I've been running water injection for a few years based on the timing principles in the article. For the most part, it's been true. I can run way more timing with it (but instead of burning more fuel like the article says, I can actually back out some fuel).
 

sho_sc

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It's not cars with boost, its cars running N20 that I disagree with.

We are knock limited running higher levels of boost which water injector helps, a lot. But to say that you can run "full timing" with N20 and that it is better, is wrong. Has to do with how fast the flame kernel travels with higher fuel densities. If you inject enough water that the flame kernel slows down significantly, then in essence you are reducing timing (chemically) and seeing less HP.

Of course, I’m now spraying N20 over top of boost …. :)
 

yamahaSHO

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Without having experience with N2O and WI at the same time, I'd fathom that you would be able to run more timing, however, the power loss may not make up for the additional timing. Even with boost, a good non-WI tune will lose power when WI is added without adding timing and tuning for it.
 

Sho Amo

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so it will help :evilgrin:
yeah justin, ill have the nitrous hooked up by next week. the water/meth, 190 fp, and fpr are going to be after i decide im gonna need a bigger shot.

just want to be safe. i mean, theres soo many people 'safely' making over 350whp with stock pistons now. it has been done with a turbo, sc, and a wet shot. i want to try doing it dry.

i think im going to need alot of tweecer practice and knowledge on this one.
might have to hit up toolman or drive down to see sho sc, louisville is only like 10 hours from here.
 

Sho Amo

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btw ive already got the octane adjust hooked up next to my nitrous switch.

edit: yeah im on stockers but i was thinkin about maybe goin up to 30#ers, that also depended on what i saw with the tweecer and running say a 100 shot. if im up to like 80% duty cycle i was gonna bump to the 30 #ers before i made the 150 or 175 leap.
 
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BlackonBlack89

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btw ive already got the octane adjust hooked up next to my nitrous switch.

edit: yeah im on stockers but i was thinkin about maybe goin up to 30#ers, that also depended on what i saw with the tweecer and running say a 100 shot. if im up to like 80% duty cycle i was gonna bump to the 30 #ers before i made the 150 or 175 leap.

Knowing you u will want boost later. Go with some 48's or stick with stock until you run 125+ shots:evilgrin: Brain has all those bolt-ons plus 100 shot so you should be fine for a 100 shot. This is getting interesting......
 

Sho Amo

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i dont want a 100. i want a 175.

i know someone who was running 12 lbs w/ a 175 shot on stock pistons. they didnt take long to blow but im not going to run any boost for awhile. i gotta get some schooling and im lookin at moving out.

so uh... me, you, and john at the convention? no2 vs. sc vs. turbo?
 
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BlackonBlack89

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i dont want a 100. i want a 175.

i know someone who was running 12 lbs w/ a 175 shot on stock pistons. they didnt take long to blow but im not going to run any boost for awhile. i gotta get some schooling and im lookin at moving out.

so uh... me, you, and john at the convention? no2 vs. sc vs. turbo?

**** yea....shit the convention, make it charlise too. hummm 3 400+chp SHO dyno runs!!!!!
 
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1995SHO9

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i dont want a 100. i want a 175.

i know someone who was running 12 lbs w/ a 175 shot on stock pistons. they didnt take long to blow but im not going to run any boost for awhile. i gotta get some schooling and im lookin at moving out.

so uh... me, you, and john at the convention? no2 vs. sc vs. turbo?

Your on my friend..:salute:

EH, I don't know, but I'd expect a 430whp run :)
 
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SHO_DOODmorrris

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hey hey... dont leave me out.. im thining of making the 4500 KM drive there and blow you out of the water with my low end grunt of the eaton and the top end hiss of the (un named turbo) and the ROAR of a 50 shot and water injection.... hey wtf ill throw some nitro in there too see if somthing cools pops out... like a piston
 

Sho Amo

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hey wtf ill throw some nitro in there too see if somthing cools pops out... like a piston

you wanna make your motor a boat anchor? im sure there are boat forums on the internet.

seriously tho, that would be a highly expensive build.


im not just throwing a bunch of nitrous through my motor just to beat two other boosted sho's. this is going to be highly safe and reliable.

does any of you know how much nitrous someone has run through a stock motor?
 

sho_sc

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Without having experience with N2O and WI at the same time, I'd fathom that you would be able to run more timing, however, the power loss may not make up for the additional timing. Even with boost, a good non-WI tune will lose power when WI is added without adding timing and tuning for it.

In one of my tuning classes, we took a turbo B18 filled with VP 104 with A/F adjusted to 11.5:1. I don't remember the boost level. We started with 15 degrees out of the stock tune and added 3 degrees on each successive pull (actually was on a brake dyno, so it was nearly in real time). The Honda made the most TQ/HP with 6 degrees out of the stock timing curve (the difference between -9 and -6 was minimal). It made far less at -3 degrees and made less power with the stock curve (0) than it did with -15 degrees.
The denser the fuel mixture, the less timing you need to make power.
You would also be surprised on how much power you don’t lose by tuning a “little” on the rich side with boost.
 

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