AND? We do all the labor. we hand dissassemble them. we cryo treat the gears and clean the gears. we drill out each rivet.....you know what I am sorry I don't deserve to make a profit or eat or pay bills. all this labor should be free and I should prolly have just given away all the diffs becasue everyone deserves something for free. what where we thinking? It takes about 2 hours to drill all the rivets alone.
Vendor PROBLEM EVERYONE NEEDS TO SEE THIS!
- Thread starter Sho-N-Go
- Start date
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it is the weak linkin stock form for a different reason than with the LSD modifacation. do a search..or I could type it all out I guess. I might as well.
OEM difs suffer from lack of fluid in the 2 extra spyder gears. The SHO unit is an enclosed unit, the only one I have ever seen. it has two tiny slots that are responsible for oiling the entire diff. In OEM form there is a lack of fluid and the side gears with the short shafts will seize on the shaft, ejecting the shaft. the LSD removes the extra set of spider gears eliminating the OEM problem.
our 1st gen of LSD's were made by Vitek which were actually made by OPM. They used a poor material for the clutch packs(which were the same set up as mine now) they offered ZERO warranty. they were race units. they proved unsuitable for race. even though there was no warranty and those who purchased knew this at the time of purchase, I still warrantied the ones that blew up out of our pockets. becasue Vitek would not warranty, and neither would OPM.
Version 2: new clutch pack material.*Lifetime warranty* introduced. Material had been tested in a car that put 100k miles on them and still did not need a rebuild (by manufacturer). we sent a couple of these out. Now we ran nto the problem of the spider gears not being strong enough. they would explode into 4 peices.
Version 3: cryo treat gears, seemigly working well. I am still unhappy witht eh material that Ford used and looked for an alternative. none was available that would wprk. I have found a case that might have worked that was made form iron and was an open case that allowed oil flow. however the bolt pattern on the ring gear was not the same. (Charles now has version 3)
Version 4: same as above with modded cases to allow maximum fluid flow. CHarles's has been the only one to blow up since version 2.
I do not wish to continue with them becasue they are the only ones that have blown up out of the cars that we produce them for. Even with the upgrades and have had no problems with version 4, the parts for teh OEM diffs are obsolete. It is hard to even find a decent diff to modify. that is why we do not want to produce them. plus I do believe the SHO diff is inferior design. We tried to make it work. we spent money and time and researched it. But the SHO game really isn't profitable anymore...or ever was.
I did not twist anyones arm into buying these. I have one in my car, and I gaurentee you I have a lot of power. I have over 6k miles on mine.
I am not tired of dealing with my customers. I like my customers, my good ones. nt the ones who have not had probelms but hte ones who understnd the MArket for SHO's and understnad I can't call up my manufacturer and make them run one clutch or whathave you infornt of an order of 1000 form a larger vendor. I don't want ot deal witht ecustomers that I have bent over backwards for and they come back and make me look like a fool. to warranty something I could have easily walked away from becasue it had no warranty at time of purchase..but I warranty anyway. or that I talk to or give advice to people till 3 am and they go right around and are the first people to jump in with their horrible experience. that is what I am talking about there. this board is full of those people. Thsoe people that think they DESERVE to have mods on their car and they should get them for nothing.
The product did work. It has worked in my 300 hp SHO just fine. it has worked in others as well. there is no scam, sorry to dissapoint you.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: 1fastsho ]</small>
Lupo
New Member
Even if the stock diff is the "weak" point, the gears were never designed to wear against another piece of metal with lateral force; even if that metal is softer. To me it seems like that this design is trying to use the gears in a way never intended by the diff designers, even if they used weak parts.
It's not like a flywheel and clutch disk that were designed to rub against each other. Obviously, the "soft" metal plates will only last a certain time. My question is: where does this metal go as these plates are worn down?
I think we all know now that even though this setup may work in other diffs, it won't work in a SHO MTX. End of story. That sucks.
I personally don't like the design, but I really feel bummed for Shawn. I'll take his word for it when he says it works fine for other cars.
He took a risk to bring the SHO community some unique aftermarket parts, with almost zilch profit. And now it backfired on him. Kind of reminds me of those infamous failing valve springs the SHO Shop has a while back. I do not blame SHO Shop, or Shawn for these products that failed. I sure a failed product is the last thing any shop would want. It's not like they sold 1000 units, and then packed up and left for Mexico!
The question is how they handle it afterwards. I do not envy Shawn's position.
It's not like a flywheel and clutch disk that were designed to rub against each other. Obviously, the "soft" metal plates will only last a certain time. My question is: where does this metal go as these plates are worn down?
I think we all know now that even though this setup may work in other diffs, it won't work in a SHO MTX. End of story. That sucks.
I personally don't like the design, but I really feel bummed for Shawn. I'll take his word for it when he says it works fine for other cars.
He took a risk to bring the SHO community some unique aftermarket parts, with almost zilch profit. And now it backfired on him. Kind of reminds me of those infamous failing valve springs the SHO Shop has a while back. I do not blame SHO Shop, or Shawn for these products that failed. I sure a failed product is the last thing any shop would want. It's not like they sold 1000 units, and then packed up and left for Mexico!
The question is how they handle it afterwards. I do not envy Shawn's position.
ohioshodude
SHO'ld fogy
WOW eek! i never knew we had such back stabbers here. damn. where is the proof that these are bad? i've only herd of 2-3 or these blowing. who knows. shawn don't stop selling the ATX ones please! hehe i want one. and if it last in jason's sho it would work just fine in anything i ever build. thumb
i thank you for aleast trying shawn, no one else has.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: ohioshodude ]</small>
i thank you for aleast trying shawn, no one else has.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: ohioshodude ]</small>
The thing is, wasn't the product was still misrepresented because I sure don't see any clutch packs in there? Regardless of how long it took to assemble these units, or how much money you should make because the rivets take 2 hours to drill out, I really think that your excuse Shawn is invalid due to this misrepresentation. I almost bought one of these recently because I felt like people don't give you enough credit to you and I wanted to give back to the SHO community. I'm glad I thought twice.
Doug
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: DougLee25 ]</small>
Doug
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: DougLee25 ]</small>
This is exactly what I am talking about. there are no clutch discs in there. SHAWN: why do I need to ask how it is made? When it says right on the website in your sig. "We incorporate clutches to transfer power to the driven wheels". Like I said Shawn I was fine the other night until I tore my unit apart. And found I had been lied too. Those wear marks are from only 3 WEEKS of use and 2,000 miles. something is wrong there. Also your car has 6,000 miles on it huh? How long has it been apart? How can you break a diff if you have the car apart doing other stuff?
I got the Quote right off the website in your sig
www.iptech.tv
Shawn. Why are you surprised by the quote I made? If they do incorperate clutchs you are telling the truth right. But since you have no idea where I dug it up then you dont even know you own website. Someone once told me that My diff was taking so long to get back because it had to machined so these things would fit???? No machining done in my case? Again why did you continue to sell a product to people that you knew side gears where exploding on? Also is this the reasons you dont give receipts? Becuase I have asked a few times about gtting them and was never sent any. I think this design may work in other applications. But like you said it doesnt work in an MTX SHO. we both are trying to get the same message out here. Dont BUY IT even Shawn himself says it wont last. Except for his the "prototype" with gobs of power. I believe the day you quit making them should have come a long time ago. I understnad the SHO market and do commend you for trying. You do have some great products an I will prob buy from you again. Just not the differential. If you will warranty it could you just find me a stock diff to send back? I would accept that instead of a built up one.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Sho-N-Go ]</small>
not to sound like a smart ass or anything, but did you read my reply at all? IT IS A CLUTCH PACK. geez you assume it has a bunch of tiny clutches int here. thatis not how it works. teh two peices of material ARE the clutches.they use friction ...just like a clutch does to create an LSD. it works.
nope that is the old website. thatis why I was surprised actually. becasue we do now offer a lifetime warranty. that is what I am getting at.
I am sorry that you aren't listening to me. they two peices of material...yeah they are the clutch packs. thatis the termenology used in the automotive world..... the world OUTSIDE of this board.
I did not mis represent or lie.
you seemed uspset about the way they were manufacturerd. all you had to do was ask. I would have told you how they work. I don't buy anythihg unless I know how it works. those are clutches packs..and that is what they are and do.
well my car has been apart.. for just a couple of months... but I my diff was the first EVER. SO lets see you wanna cataloge my milage ok.
I installed diff. next day I drove from ATL to Boston Mass...20 hour drive...hmm that might put some miles on there. I have been driving it everywhere as it is my only car.. at the time. it sat at a header shop for a cuople of months. I go to my parents house where the plasma cutter is on the weekends. That is 64 miles one way. trust me it adds up. anything else you want me to document for you?
the wear marks are fine. Doing just what it is supposed to do. Would you rather the gear have worn rather than the clutch pack? The wear marks are fine, just what they are supposed to do and be.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: 1fastsho ]</small>
shojuan
New Member
There are lots of different types of clutches just as Shawn has said. ****, I built a clutch into my malt mill with a friend to prevent a rock in the malt from causing the gears to chew up (gears are a weak point in my mill, they're delrin. I plan to cast some in aluminum one of these days). My mill sits on top of a wooden box frame. In the middle of the frame I have a wooden flap hinged to the frame. The motor sits on that hinged flap. The mill has a big pulley and the motor has a small pulley and they're connected by a belt. The weight of the motor on that flap creates tension on the belt. And when a rock enters the mill or even if I just grab the big pulley with my hands then the belt will slip because the motor just "floats" on the flap. That my friends is a clutch. Same behavior, different form.
Now I'm not commenting on the quality of Shawn's product. I'll just say that I've always been of the mind, "why not spend a few hundred more and just get a Quaife?" But I'm an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of guy at heart. Also the fact that Shawn filled a niche at a time when no Quaifes were available is very commendable. What I will say is I don't think people should razz Shawn because they didn't find a bunch of little miniature valeo or sachs clutch discs in there. Also the point Shawn made about having to eat is *very* true. If he hadn't said it I would have. Should I work for free on a client's network or a lowly desktop computer? **** no! I get paid $75 an hour for that! I don't care if all I'm doing is replacing a fan in a power supply. $75 an hour. Lol, maybe I should raise my rates. I charged the same thing 7 years ago.
And third, I think we all need to remind ourselves every now and then caveat emptor, buyer beware.
And fourth, Shawn I do have some issue with you blaming the weak stock diff parts. Your product works as a system with the stock parts. Part of making a good aftermarket product is looking at the whole system and making sure that everything works together well. I'm glad you're ceasing production of this unit for the SHO.
Now I'm not commenting on the quality of Shawn's product. I'll just say that I've always been of the mind, "why not spend a few hundred more and just get a Quaife?" But I'm an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of guy at heart. Also the fact that Shawn filled a niche at a time when no Quaifes were available is very commendable. What I will say is I don't think people should razz Shawn because they didn't find a bunch of little miniature valeo or sachs clutch discs in there. Also the point Shawn made about having to eat is *very* true. If he hadn't said it I would have. Should I work for free on a client's network or a lowly desktop computer? **** no! I get paid $75 an hour for that! I don't care if all I'm doing is replacing a fan in a power supply. $75 an hour. Lol, maybe I should raise my rates. I charged the same thing 7 years ago.
And third, I think we all need to remind ourselves every now and then caveat emptor, buyer beware.
And fourth, Shawn I do have some issue with you blaming the weak stock diff parts. Your product works as a system with the stock parts. Part of making a good aftermarket product is looking at the whole system and making sure that everything works together well. I'm glad you're ceasing production of this unit for the SHO.
coreect it does work as a system. and we have continuously been trying to upgrade. it is at the point now where the only thing that I will feel comfortable with to make these live without question is to have stronger gears made. At that piont the cost is too high.
the thing about the OEM parts ids that the ATX ones work flawlessly. The Honda ones work Flawlessly, hte supercharded Maxima difs I have put together work beautifully. I am getting ready to assemble one for a 900 hp supra...all factory parts. the Honda civic SI factory internals are only good to about 300 or so HP. it is in experience. and I have tried to make it work I really did. but the side gears in the SHO I just think are too small and inferioir.
I even was going to use a different case and it would have worked perfectly...except for the different ring gear size and bolt pattern. HA then I thought I could actually have a higher final drive kit for the SHO but who would really buy that as it would mean the replacement of the output shafts also.
like I said it works on90% of other cars which is why I I kept trying and trying. Unfortuantley there are no gaureentees in Performance world. That is why it is performance and Racing. try taking a King Cobra clutch back to Ford even if it has been installed for only 10 miles.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: 1fastsho ]</small>
the thing about the OEM parts ids that the ATX ones work flawlessly. The Honda ones work Flawlessly, hte supercharded Maxima difs I have put together work beautifully. I am getting ready to assemble one for a 900 hp supra...all factory parts. the Honda civic SI factory internals are only good to about 300 or so HP. it is in experience. and I have tried to make it work I really did. but the side gears in the SHO I just think are too small and inferioir.
I even was going to use a different case and it would have worked perfectly...except for the different ring gear size and bolt pattern. HA then I thought I could actually have a higher final drive kit for the SHO but who would really buy that as it would mean the replacement of the output shafts also.
like I said it works on90% of other cars which is why I I kept trying and trying. Unfortuantley there are no gaureentees in Performance world. That is why it is performance and Racing. try taking a King Cobra clutch back to Ford even if it has been installed for only 10 miles.
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: 1fastsho ]</small>
So the link in your signature is a old page huh? I understand how it works. I am just saying it doesnt act well for our cars. Where does the ground metal shavings go from the clutch packs? into the trans till the little magnet picks them up. anyone think of that? I dont think customers should have to ask How a distict package works. if it is detailed on thier website how it works. Also if the vendor was having problems and KNOW they had problems withthe diffs. why still produce them for customers? until proven? to not break. I also would like to know why I was never told about the possible gear problem until this time. Was it cause I didnt ask? I asked last time why it broke. I asked this time why it broke. Your diff Shawn is different than any others produced you told me that yourself. last time you fixed mine. Remember? I am not tryting to get in a match here. I would just like to get this over with. Are you willing to send me a stock diff? if not I am willing to accept another IPT DIFF. but would you be willing to send another Main Shaft and fith gear shaft? both of them were also distroyed from the side gears grinding through the teeth. If the website is not updated then Please take the link off your profile. Because I just clicked and same thing. Do you have to machine this diff unit? I do have all the ground up parts. to send you back.
Yamaha V6
SHO Enthusiast
This is all just wrong.
Either it's a "performance" part, and there's no warranty whatsoever Shawn, or you stand by the product. Pick one. That's part of where the problem lies. If it's no warranty then come right out & say it: "There is no warranty on this part. Sorry, have a nice day" when the customer calls complaining. It's one thing to be on the website, it's another to say it & get a confirmation that the customer understands that. Then, the only thing you should say is the same exact thing when said customer posts the warning online, and not be ****** that "we're all backstabbers" - the product is junk Shawn, plain & simple, and has been since day one when they left the back door. But, it's a performance modification, therefore it can't handle the job asked of it. Oh wait, Quaifes do. A Quaife must be a maintenance part then, and not a performance part. See, here's the thing that gets me Shawn - these things are blowing up on the way to get coffee, not on the racetrack stuffed in heavily modded SHOS like the limited number of Quaife diffs that have gone buh-bye.
Chuck, if you bought the "no warranty version", be glad you got any kind of a replacement. If there's any kind of warranty, get what's due you, even if it's a new LSD. It may not be what's desired at this point, but it's what you paid for, and it's something. Cash refund, check with IPT's official refund policy. I also originally assumed a clutch-disc type, but I understand Shawn's explanation of the term "clutch".
Shawn, pick a course in your life, be it musician, student, or SHO Parts Vendor. Do all three if you want, but keep them separated. If a customer calls you, (whether to order, to check on a shipment, or to complain that "their freaking car blew up AGAIN"), the last thing they want to hear is any kind of shift of focus. Don't shift the focus & mention how late you stayed out jammin' with da boyz, how you can't make it to the post office to ship a product someone's paid for because you have midterms this week (unless it's to offer a timeline of WHEN your end of the deal is going to happen), or how Joe Schmoe's Honda works with this product, but it's not working on our cars, "gee, really, it's Ford that screwed up, not us...". Ford doesn't sell IPT diffs, you do. We especially don't want to hear about it here on SHOForum how Honda LSDs are so fantastic. Tell it to MugenPowerOnline or something. The bottom line is, the IPT MTX SHO differential has a very shady history, to say it nicely.
And be careful mentioning that one special ATX diff you keep referring to, as it's my understanding that it was "enhanced" after leaving your hands. You can't take the credit for a piece that's not completely your own, especially when the customer has to have it beefed up prior to installation for fear of it blowing up. Oh wait, it was already in the car, and he paid twice, once to have it installed, and once to have it removed before even gettign the car back...
See where we're going with this? Nail down a position on this Shawn. Keep the product, ditch the product, support the product, don't support the product, offer a replacement, don't, offer a refund, or don't. Establish a position & stick to it.
Oh BTW, I was going to reply this morning, when I first started reading your replies to this situation but decided not to, and to instead bite my lip. This version was prompted by your 2:55pm post which just pushed my last button with your side of the argument, and is FAR more tame than this morning's was going to be. I did save a copy of the pretty damning version of your track record, if you insist on reading it.
I suggest you both deal with this offline at this point, as it's only going to get much uglier from here, and will likely result in a settlement / situation that isn't good for anyone involved. Post this stuff publicly, and of course the public is going to become a participant.
Either it's a "performance" part, and there's no warranty whatsoever Shawn, or you stand by the product. Pick one. That's part of where the problem lies. If it's no warranty then come right out & say it: "There is no warranty on this part. Sorry, have a nice day" when the customer calls complaining. It's one thing to be on the website, it's another to say it & get a confirmation that the customer understands that. Then, the only thing you should say is the same exact thing when said customer posts the warning online, and not be ****** that "we're all backstabbers" - the product is junk Shawn, plain & simple, and has been since day one when they left the back door. But, it's a performance modification, therefore it can't handle the job asked of it. Oh wait, Quaifes do. A Quaife must be a maintenance part then, and not a performance part. See, here's the thing that gets me Shawn - these things are blowing up on the way to get coffee, not on the racetrack stuffed in heavily modded SHOS like the limited number of Quaife diffs that have gone buh-bye.
Chuck, if you bought the "no warranty version", be glad you got any kind of a replacement. If there's any kind of warranty, get what's due you, even if it's a new LSD. It may not be what's desired at this point, but it's what you paid for, and it's something. Cash refund, check with IPT's official refund policy. I also originally assumed a clutch-disc type, but I understand Shawn's explanation of the term "clutch".
Shawn, pick a course in your life, be it musician, student, or SHO Parts Vendor. Do all three if you want, but keep them separated. If a customer calls you, (whether to order, to check on a shipment, or to complain that "their freaking car blew up AGAIN"), the last thing they want to hear is any kind of shift of focus. Don't shift the focus & mention how late you stayed out jammin' with da boyz, how you can't make it to the post office to ship a product someone's paid for because you have midterms this week (unless it's to offer a timeline of WHEN your end of the deal is going to happen), or how Joe Schmoe's Honda works with this product, but it's not working on our cars, "gee, really, it's Ford that screwed up, not us...". Ford doesn't sell IPT diffs, you do. We especially don't want to hear about it here on SHOForum how Honda LSDs are so fantastic. Tell it to MugenPowerOnline or something. The bottom line is, the IPT MTX SHO differential has a very shady history, to say it nicely.
And be careful mentioning that one special ATX diff you keep referring to, as it's my understanding that it was "enhanced" after leaving your hands. You can't take the credit for a piece that's not completely your own, especially when the customer has to have it beefed up prior to installation for fear of it blowing up. Oh wait, it was already in the car, and he paid twice, once to have it installed, and once to have it removed before even gettign the car back...
See where we're going with this? Nail down a position on this Shawn. Keep the product, ditch the product, support the product, don't support the product, offer a replacement, don't, offer a refund, or don't. Establish a position & stick to it.
Oh BTW, I was going to reply this morning, when I first started reading your replies to this situation but decided not to, and to instead bite my lip. This version was prompted by your 2:55pm post which just pushed my last button with your side of the argument, and is FAR more tame than this morning's was going to be. I did save a copy of the pretty damning version of your track record, if you insist on reading it.
I suggest you both deal with this offline at this point, as it's only going to get much uglier from here, and will likely result in a settlement / situation that isn't good for anyone involved. Post this stuff publicly, and of course the public is going to become a participant.
shojuan
New Member
Just take your new one and sell it. That's what somebody else here did and then he put the money towards a Quaife.
Then he would rip off another SHO owner jpshakeh
Instead of a full refund or replacement, how about refund the money it cost to make the diff. Either way, you are out that money. shrug
<small>[ June 17, 2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: yamahaSHO ]</small>
PROPHET
Well-Known Member
Im with Jason on this one why would you sell another SHO owner a part that will grenade your tranny. shrug
shojuan
New Member
Because there's a sucker/fool born every minute? shrug Just ask Billysho!
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