Tuning questions

[gamah]

After running Torque Pro on my 2018 PP and seeing what kind of milage I'm getting now I've put 500+ miles on it I have questions..

Is it possible to tune the car to stay out of boost? I noticed on even pretty light pedal inputs it's pretty easy to get into boost, and while cruising around town even though I think my foot is pretty light it's hard to accelerate slow enough to stay way into vacuum. I suppose at least it must be possible to change up the drive by wire curve to soften it up, right?

Is 40+ degrees of timing in low load situations right? or maybe Torque Pro is reading wrong? That seems super duper aggressive.

Is it possible to have tunes which have different parameters based on the shifter position? Would be neat to have drive be a sort of "eco" mode and sport be the high power tune...

This one's a stretch but after some googling I couldn't find any definitive answers... has anyone experimented at all with cylinder deactivation on this engine? I'm guessing it's probably not possible with the stock ECU...

TL;DR Yes sports car go brrr... but what if we're just getting groceries and they're 40 miles away? Can we tune these cars to hypermile?

 

[802SHO]

This might be the first time someone wanted less boost.

 

[stripSHO]

Most of what you're asking for can be done, but staying way in vacuum all the time just means more pumping losses. You want to aim for peak BSFC, which I presume Ford has already pretty well done for us. I'm assuming you're stock, which means no matter what boost you're running there's no power enrichment until you hit 90% pedal. If you want to really take it to the max then I bet it could be improved on some.

The stock accelerator mapping looks like this:

The Y axis is A/D counts, with 1024 being 100%. So you're all in at 55% pedal, with the lion's share of torque coming in at just 35%. There's also a very large multiplication (up to 45% extra) in the 15%-25% pedal range that tapers in as speed increases.

 

[SM105K]

Most of what you're asking for can be done, but staying way in vacuum all the time just means more pumping losses. You want to aim for peak BSFC, which I presume Ford has already pretty well done for us. I'm assuming you're stock, which means no matter what boost you're running there's no power enrichment until you hit 90% pedal. If you want to really take it to the max then I bet it could be improved on some.

The stock accelerator mapping looks like this:
View attachment 83071
The Y axis is A/D counts, with 1024 being 100%. So you're all in at 55% pedal, with the lion's share of torque coming in at just 35%. There's also a very large multiplication (up to 45% extra) in the 15%-25% pedal range that tapers in as speed increases.

Hermione over here. 1 point Gryffindor!

 

[luigisho]

This might be the first time someone wanted less boost.

I wish I could hit the like button eleventeen more times under that post.

 

[Bluezone]

After running Torque Pro on my 2018 PP and seeing what kind of milage I'm getting now I've put 500+ miles on it I have questions..

Is it possible to tune the car to stay out of boost? I noticed on even pretty light pedal inputs it's pretty easy to get into boost, and while cruising around town even though I think my foot is pretty light it's hard to accelerate slow enough to stay way into vacuum. I suppose at least it must be possible to change up the drive by wire curve to soften it up, right?

Is 40+ degrees of timing in low load situations right? or maybe Torque Pro is reading wrong? That seems super duper aggressive.

Is it possible to have tunes which have different parameters based on the shifter position? Would be neat to have drive be a sort of "eco" mode and sport be the high power tune...

This one's a stretch but after some googling I couldn't find any definitive answers... has anyone experimented at all with cylinder deactivation on this engine? I'm guessing it's probably not possible with the stock ECU...

TL;DR Yes sports car go brrr... but what if we're just getting groceries and they're 40 miles away? Can we tune these cars to hypermile?

I can see why everyone's laughing it is pretty funny.
But seriously. You would likely need a large steady state, boost bypass valve to avoid boost fuel enrichment that could activate at lower throttle angle high load and/or additional air flow from turbos. Stock bypass/blow off valves doesn't do this and probably couldn't support the high duty cycle. You want to stay in vacuum.
Low load and no knock, it should be perfectly safe to have 40 degrees. Must admit it does sound kind of high. I didn't think fuel was being injected that early.
I don't think cylinder deactivation would help very much. No way to stop the valves from opening. You might end up up with pumping losses without it. Also might cause problems with the emissions and fuel trim controls, due to unused air being released into the exhaust stream. Lambda sensors in the exhaust, read the oxygen content/consumption.
Edit: mind you, you could possibly apply retaded intake cam timing with the boost pressure and try to achieve a Miller cycle. Depends on how much intake cam timing and duration is available.

 

[76FoMoCo]

I can see why everyone's laughing it is pretty funny.
But seriously. You would likely need a large steady state. boost bypass valve to avoid boost fuel enrichment that could activate at lower throttle angle high load and/or additional air flow from turbos. Stock bypass doesn't do this and probably couldn't support the high duty cycle. You want to stay in vacuum.

Or sell it and buy a N/A SEL.

 

[stripSHO]

I can see why everyone's laughing it is pretty funny.
But seriously. You would likely need a large steady state. boost bypass valve to avoid boost fuel enrichment that could activate at lower throttle angle high load and/or additional air flow from turbos. Stock bypass doesn't do this and probably couldn't support the high duty cycle. You want to stay in vacuum.

None of that is necessary. It can be done in the tune in far less time than it will take me to physically type this reply. And as stated above, it's your right foot that determines when the enrichment kicks in, nothing else. It's set to 90% pedal from the factory but can be manipulated to varying targets at different RPM. After an adjustable time delay, PE kicks in. From there, AFR can further be manipulated according to RPM and coolant temp. This is all done with just a few mouse clicks.

And just to reiterate again, big vacuum does NOT provide the most efficient acceleration. You want peak BSFC, which comes at high load and low to mid RPM.

 

[stripSHO]

When I'm trying to sip fuel, I generally try to let my cruise control accelerate for me. I haven't thoroughly tested it but it seems run the car right in the sweet spot for efficiency.

 

[Bluezone]

None of that is necessary. It can be done in the tune in far less time than it will take me to physically type this reply. And as stated above, it's your right foot that determines when the enrichment kicks in, nothing else. It's set to 90% pedal from the factory but can be manipulated to varying targets at different RPM. After an adjustable time delay, PE kicks in. From there, AFR can further be manipulated according to RPM and coolant temp. This is all done with just a few mouse clicks.

And just to reiterate again, big vacuum does NOT provide the most efficient acceleration. You want peak BSFC, which comes at high load and low to mid RPM.

Best BSFC happens generally at WOT. Plus, He's not trying to accelerate. But I see your point. Didn't take me long to think of or type any of this as well. Easy peasy.
Other than changing Tunes it's kind of hard to switch back and forth between Miller cycle as well.

 

[stripSHO]

Best BSFC happens generally at WOT. Plus, He's not trying to accelerate. But I see your point. Didn't take me long to think of or type any of this as well. Easy peasy.

??? He seriously wrote a paragraph about acceleration, and every aspect of your first reply related only to eliminating boost under acceleration. You gettin' into da cold snacks tonight?

Is it possible to tune the car to stay out of boost? I noticed on even pretty light pedal inputs it's pretty easy to get into boost, and while cruising around town even though I think my foot is pretty light it's hard to accelerate slow enough to stay way into vacuum. I suppose at least it must be possible to change up the drive by wire curve to soften it up, right?

 

[Bluezone]

??? He seriously wrote a paragraph about acceleration, and every aspect of your first reply related only to eliminating boost under acceleration. You gettin' into da cold snacks tonight?

Nah. I wish. Just very tired. Keeping an eye on girlfriend with pain problems due to cancer. I'm the night shift. Stepdaughter is day shift.
What do you think of Porsches expansion Cooling to improve brake specific fuel consumption?

I found these.

 

[stripSHO]

Nah. I wish. Just very tired. Keeping an eye on girlfriend with pain problems due to cancer. I'm the night shift. Stepdaughter is day shift.
What do you think of Porsches expansion Cooling to improve brake specific fuel consumption?

I found these. View attachment 83088View attachment 83089View attachment 83090

Sorry to hear. I don't know what you're referring to with porsche unfortunately

 

[Bluezone]

Sorry to hear. I don't know what you're referring to with porsche unfortunately

No problem thank you for your kind words.
Here's a video explaining how it works. It's kind of counterintuitive, but intercoolers can't can't quite cool the air charge down to ambient and this added trick drops it below ambient.

Just wish i had compressor map for the stock turbos. If this could be applied, plus if the available compressor map for t15 turbos is the same, the higher pressure ratio might put it in a higher efficiency island.

 

[gamah]

I watch a lot of youtube stuff on tuning and the thought of working on cars software does sound really fun to me...

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding everything that's said here though. I understand keeping strong vacuum means more pumping losses, so I get why it might be more efficient to keep the car closer to atmospheric...

Is there really no way to get more mileage (even when highway cruising) out of these things with a more aggressive mileage-minded tune? Also, is there no way to have different maps based on where the shifter is? Because being able to drop to sport mode and whiz past a semi before going back into D and having the pedal feel musy and unresponsive (at the benefit of worthwhile MPG gains) sounds pretty neat.

Thanks for the input on cylinder deactivation, that makes sense! Hadn't thought of it like that.

 

[stripSHO]

No problem thank you for your kind words.
Here's a video explaining how it works. It's kind of counterintuitive, but intercoolers can't can't quite cool the air charge down to ambient and this added trick drops it below ambient.

Just wish i had compressor map for the stock turbos. If this could be applied, plus if the available compressor map for t15 turbos is the same, the higher pressure ratio might put it in a higher efficiency island.

No problem with the compressor map, I got you! https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/stock-turbo-map.141303/

I don't think I'm impressed. Seems the effects due to adiabatic expansion are greatly overstated. In terms of dry air, a 5 psi pressure reduction is only going to lower temperature by like 0.05 C. I don't feel like digging into moist air specifics but I don't think it's dramatically different. Maybe I'm missing something. Did a little bit of other reading on it, and though they talk a lot about lowering Porsche's BSFC, there's suspiciously no mention of the effect on specific power anywhere. The video calls out the 2008 911 GT2, and looking at the specs it weighs a good 700 lbs less than an SHO yet has lower rated MPG and the specific power isn't any greater than a SHO with turbo upgrades. No thanks!

Also, it seems Ford possibly already applies this theory? They run boost pre-throttle body well before the engine is asking for it. I always assumed it was for the sake of throttle response, but maybe there's more to it. Look at this log of light acceleration, note the difference between TIP and MAP and how wgdc goes up even though no boost required...

 

[stripSHO]

I watch a lot of youtube stuff on tuning and the thought of working on cars software does sound really fun to me...

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding everything that's said here though. I understand keeping strong vacuum means more pumping losses, so I get why it might be more efficient to keep the car closer to atmospheric...

Is there really no way to get more mileage (even when highway cruising) out of these things with a more aggressive mileage-minded tune? Also, is there no way to have different maps based on where the shifter is? Because being able to drop to sport mode and whiz past a semi before going back into D and having the pedal feel musy and unresponsive (at the benefit of worthwhile MPG gains) sounds pretty neat.

Thanks for the input on cylinder deactivation, that makes sense! Hadn't thought of it like that.

All the shifter does is tweak shift points and amplify the input from your accelerator pedal. It won't do anything for MPG that you can't accomplish with your right foot. But if you drive in heavy boots and need the car to exercise self control for you, then certainly you can chop off the max torque requested in D and send it to the moon in S.

Yes, there are things that can be done to potentially improve MPG. Adjust cam timing, increase cruise lambda targets, play with rail pressure and injection timing, etc. Gearhead customers often report better MPG, though I don't know whether it's a fact or inaccurate calculations from the IPC display. But I expect if you want to accomplish a dramatic increase in economy then you probably need to talk to a dealership about a title mod.