Tube subframe should I build one ( not connectors)

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SHOGUN R

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AutoSHO

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How are you going to test the strength and durability? Will you guarantee it will never break? What if it does, will you pay for all damage incurred to my car?
 

SHOGUN R

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AutoSHO:
How are you going to test the strength and durability? Will you guarantee it will never break? What if it does, will you pay for all damage incurred to my car?
Well I am not going to (guarantee) that it will never brake but as for strength it will be a lot better then the stock crap and look better thumb all chrome moly no crap !
my feeling on it you will dust your mounts/trans/CV/ECT before braking the sub frame

Also I am going to look at

1 I might be able to add more adjustibility to the front end shrug

2 I am going to see what I can do about making it easy to pull the trans

3 make sub frame connectors that will work with the new sub frame

4 looking at new clean looking motor mounts

Cost I will see how much I am guessing $350+ it is not a simple as a mustang :(

Now it is up to the guys working on the new gears sets come on guys they will need to hold 700HP and at least 550 FT LB of torq :D

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: SHOGUN R ]</small>
 

SHOguy 92

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$350 huh? I wish I had $350 right now I'd be all over it. What about later on if someone approached you with some cash would you make one for them? Post pics later and good luck.
 

SHOGUN R

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SHOguy11:
$350 huh? I wish I had $350 right now I'd be all over it. What about later on if someone approached you with some cash would you make one for them? Post pics later and good luck.
That will be no problem :) I am hopeing to have the p-type done march and then I will have a jig to make as much as needed thumb

I am also looking to get a website up by July that will have the products that I will offer I am also doing parts for the 2.3 OHC Ford intakes/mounts/ect so I will keep the group informed

I will have new info on the SHOGUNS next month thumb
I am still looking for a good fiberglass shop that is close frown
 

element913

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Hey man,

Props to you if you can do it! There are alot more variables with the SHO subframe. The control arms and tensioner rods bolt to it, as does the Steering Rack and Power Steering cooler, if you can do it for less than $500 I would most likely buy one for sure :) .
 

LOUDSHO92

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Well that would seem like a good idea. My front has been scraped up so bad. Maybe with the new subframe you can make use of Gen3 knuckles? As far as making it easy to change out the transmission well you would need to make the connection of the tranmission mount removable and enough room for the transmission to get out. Also there would need to be some support of the engine so the engine would twist while the transmission is out. The mounts should hold but it may slowly twist, screwing things up.

Dont make it too complicated as if you do new mounts well you better be producing them for a long time or easily made. This may cause people to not want it.

If you need help designing it I might be able to help. I am quite good at Unigraphics and Autocad. I would just need dimensions to help out.
 

nc89sho

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I think it's a good idea, keep us informed i might be in the market for one for the project car. thumb
 

munkee

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Yeah, I was just looking at that today even. My first thought was that you could gain an inch or two between the subframe and radiator support for mounting an intercooler. The second thought was that maybe you could use different control arms for the front. Then I was thinking that you could in effect make a full frame for the car, fusing subframe, sfc's and a rear control arm box brace into one. Then I thought I better quit daydreaming and get to work or I'm never gonna get this car finished! Good luck with it, I am curious to see what you come up with.
 

revhardSHO

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There was a non-sho taurus (heavly lightened) at the last convention. It had an aluminum subframe. Donno how long it would last under hard SHO driving, but i guess it was interesting.
 

SnoSho

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"There was a non-sho taurus (heavly lightened) at the last convention. It had an aluminum subframe. Donno how long it would last under hard SHO driving, but i guess it was interesting."

Are you talking the AL Sable? Thats now Electric powered? It lasted as a Show car with SHO driveline until it was stripped out by the U of WI to be an Electric car.
 

twr

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Boy - Don't know if I would want a lighter subframe and if it fails, you would be screwed. Personally, I would rather hack up hood bracing to loose the weight up higher, than lower. The lower the center of gravity the better and removing weight from bottom raises the center of gravity - albeit very slightly. IMHO, there are better ways to shed weight.
 

SHOguy 92

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Boy - Don't know if I would want a lighter subframe and if it fails, you would be screwed. Personally, I would rather hack up hood bracing to loose the weight up higher, than lower. The lower the center of gravity the better and removing weight from bottom raises the center of gravity - albeit very slightly. IMHO, there are better ways to shed weight.
Lighter doesn't mean weaker. infact it'll probably mean much stronger. Like he said he got the idea looking at mustang K-members, those what cut off 20lbs or so? And add lots of rigity. hail
 

twr

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Yeah, and lighter doesn't always mean stronger either. There are a ton of forces acting on the Taurus subframe. Not only does it hold the motor and the tranny up, it's a major part of the front suspension (control arms and strut tention rods bolt to it), holds the steering rack, it takes all the acceration and braking forces, cornering forces, designed to act a certain way in a severe frontal crash... and the list goes on. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance on a tubular subframe for a SHO, unless it had been completely engineered, stamped and signed off on. I think building one and basing the idea of a K member is asking for trouble.

<small>[ February 28, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: twr ]</small>
 

Todd TCE

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A 'light weight, stronger, properly engineered, Cm, tig welded, frame with mounts correct for all suspension points, motor/trans supports incorporated, bolts right on' and costs only $350!

Not a chance in **** unless someone has parts to give away. A few of the would be fabricators need to spend a few days in a local race shop working with builders and seeing what's involved.

Now if you told me the finished part came in at about $15-1800 I'd at least say you have a clue to what you speak of.

And aluminum? Forget about it. Take it from someone who knows.


Sheese, where do you guys come up with these ideas?
And let me guess, after all this you won't give up the sunroof, AC, power seats and windows, etc. And of course the 200lbs of stereo/video epuipment.....
 

AutoSHO

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My question on education was directed towards the gentlemen making the subframes.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: AutoSHO ]</small>
 

gmorrell

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I'll give a hearty second to Todd's comments on Aluminum subframes. I've watched Todd and other hillclimb racers struggle with the Wells Coyote Aluminum tubeframe hillclimb cars. Despite being constructed from high alloy tubing and using good quality TIG welding, they suffer from bending, fatigue failure, and cracked welds.

I've been through the strength of materials issues between Aluminum and Steel both here and on Topica TechSHO, and frankly, I'm tired of repeating myself. Do a search on either list and read what I've written.

One of the problems with welding Aluminum is that the heat of welding de-tempers the local area around the weld. To achieve ultimate strength with welded aluminum, the entire subframe would need to be heat-treated after assembly. Then it may need to be straightened, because the heat treat may cause it to twist up a bit.

Ownership of a TIG welder and a tube bender does not qualify one to build SHO subframes. Do you possess the tools to perform a finite element analysis to understand the high stress areas and bending moments of your subframe? For the individual proposing the integrated subframe/subframe-connectors/rear-torque-box reinforcement package, do you have the crash simulation tools and supercomputer needed to evaluate your design and its effect on the crash-worthiness and occupant protection of the vehicle? You'd better have these tools, and/or one heck of a lot of liability insurance, because if you screw-up, people are going to be injured or killed, and no amount of slickly-worded liability disclaimers are going to keep your butt out of court.

And those of you who talk with authority about tubular K-members for Mustangs, how many of you self-professed experts actually own a Mustang tubular K-member, or have done extensive research on these pieces? I have, and if I were to put a tubular K-member on my open track SVO Mustang, I'd consider only Griggs or Maximum Motorsports as potential vendors. I know these people have done the research and engineering to make a K-member that will withstand the forces of road racing. Everything else is potentially under-engineered, light-weight-at-any-cost, drag-race-only junk.

On the subject of the U of Wisconsin Aluminum Sable project, kindly download this pdf which summarizes their efforts in 1999: U of WI Aluminum Cow, 1999 Technical Report. Please refer to page 9 where they speak of their Aluminum engine cradle (subframe). FWIW, they address the heat treating issues I spoke of earlier. Now, for a 1G (10m/S^2) lateral cornering load, they're willing to put up with 3 TIMES the deflection of the steel engine cradle. That may be considered acceptable for a street car, but this part won't get near my track SHO. Additionally, for Aluminum, flexure = fatigue, and fatigue = eventual failure. Somebody write these folks a letter and ask them how many miles they have on their Aluminum Cow? I'd speculate, perhaps a few thousand? I'd like to see a full report on their Aluminum engine cradle when they've racked up 50 or 60 thousand miles.

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Gary M. ]</small>
 
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