The Big Brake Myth

[ThrillSHO]

I agree whole-heartedly. That would fall under "serious track use" as I stated in the original post.

 

[fredhurderjr]

Street use here, supercharged 95 SHO, no lives were endangered in the making of this post.

My Observations:
95 stock brakes:
warped after one month, naturally aspirated.

95 SHO Shop rotors, PF pads:
braking adequate naturally aspirated, 1 year on the car, no problems with warping. Braking lacking a bit after the blower,

still no problem with warping.

SP Motorsports 96 brakes, drilled & plated, KVR pads:
Awesome braking, no warping (yet - 6 months), stopping distance greatly reduced, no fade detected on street or autocross course. VERY dirty dust-wise.

Same tires all around - 17" x 7.5" wheels, 235/45-17 BFG G-force KDW tires.

Again, this is just MY OBSERVATION. No skidpad, no Car & Driver braking tests, etc.

For $300, I'm VERY pleased in the move to 96 brakes.

 

[ChitownA34DR]

Originally posted by 90MTXSHO:

Wf = Wi + at1, Wf = final rot. speed, Wi = blah blaaah blah blllaaahhh blah blah blaaah blah Wf = Wi + aT1 blah blah blah and Wf = Wi + (a+x)T2 => 0 = blaah blah.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN BAZZAL!? (From Austin Powers if anyone doesn't know that)

 

[90MTXSHO]

Originally posted by SmOkE93SHO:
WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN BAZZAL!? (From Austin Powers if anyone doesn't know that)

simply put, you increase your acceleration, your speed will increase as a function of time. If you apply negative acceleration, you are slowing w/a function of time.

Another, probably simpler way to look at it is w/pressure. Assume pressure remains constant in a braking system (i dunno if this is true or not...). If you increase the surface area of the pad against the rotor, you get higher force (because force equals pressure * area).

An anology that us MTX peepz feel: Your clutch uses a frictional surface to transfer power from the engine to the wheels. If your clutch is tiny, you'll have less area of contact, and it'll most likely slip. If you increase the size of the clutch, you increase the frictional surface, giving you a better chance of getting all that power to the wheels. Same principle applies w/wheels there, too - your maximum acceleration is limited to your wheel's endurance (S/C'd guys know this...), but w/out a clutch that can transfer your power, the wheels will never reach that point.

Just so ya know, I don't disagree - tires are a very important part of the braking process, but it is only one of a complex system of parts that shouldn't be discounted.

 

[1fastsho]

Hey DRIVINHARD, you have my old 10" rotors on video after the Road Atlanta track day at the Atlanta Convention. They still never faded though The drivers side rotor had a crack all the way through it. I continued to do that to one set of rotors a month, until I got the Baer 13" kit......which I have warped those rotors a bit too.

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Shawn Pasley
Innovative Performance Technologies
770-725-4631 www.iptech.tv
92 SHO red/grey
3.2L(bored) Lowered compression(9:1)
stageII cams, Ported/Polished heads,Ported/polished Intake manifold(runners, endtanks, and behind the throttle body), big bore butterflies,80mm maf, LPM,equal length Long Tube Headers and custom Y pipe, Dynomax cat-back, Koni/coil-over suspension, poly-bushings everywhere,26mm FRONT sway bar, 28mm REAR sway bar,rear strut tower brace, solid subframe bushings,subframe connectors, tubular aluminum adjustable rear control arms,shortened shifter,235/45/17 Toyo Proxes T1-S's on TSW VX-1's. 15 lbs of boost here I come!

[This message has been edited by 1fastsho (edited 12-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 1fastsho (edited 12-14-2001).]

 

[drivinhard]

Yeah I think I remember that! I'll have to dig that out of the archive.

I ran PFCM pads on my 'old 92 brakes and I could get them bright orange and still get pretty good performance from those pads, but i was cracking and warping rotors every other week. Just too small to handle the heat from hard driving a 3400 lb car.

The 96 rotors I eventually warped on my 92 after 3 yrs on the street, but I use another pair w/ carbotech pads on the track. The pads are good for about 200 miles of full out track use before they are on the rivets, but I'm still running the same track rotors I ran back in '99 in Atlanta. Still true as can be...

I was getting slight fade at summit point in the fall, but it's really only got 2 hard braking zones, the biggest at the end of the frontstretch (115 mph to about 40 into turn 1). But I tore the pads all to heck, and melted the boots off the caliper pistons.

Wilwoods going on the 89 track slave, hopefully before summer. At 2950 lbs, race rubber and some good binders, I'll be able to get all up in the mirrors of the the blower guys at the covention

Nothing worse than flogging happy pilot in an SR71 Blackbird all over your rearview

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White 92
SR71SHO - racer '89

 

[RJ-92]

Originally posted by 1fastsho:
Hey DRIVINHARD, you have my old 10" rotors on video after the Road Atlanta track day at the Atlanta Convention. They still never faded though The drivers side rotor had a crack all the way through it. I continued to do that to one set of rotors a month, until I got the Baer 13" kit......which I have warped those rotors a bit too.

Shawn, You Suck!

First of all, I wish I had 13" Baer brakes
Second - No F-ing way my car would be fast enough to warp them.

You lucky B@$t@rd

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Ron Wazz

Red 92 MTX 109K
ss y-pipe,
dynomax cat-back w/1 superturbo & 1 ultra-flo muffler,
street/strip clutch,
18Lb. fly wheel,
ss tq limiters,
bored out MAF,
UDPs, ported intake
Konis and Eibachs, 26mm RSB
In storage for the winter

 

[noSHO]

Originally posted by drivinhard:
At 2950 lbs, race rubber and some good binders, I'll be able to get all up in the mirrors of the the blower guys at the covention

Nothing worse than flogging happy pilot in an SR71 Blackbird all over your rearview

Hahaha...Mark you crack me up

.

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-Dave
Green 92 80k coneless, fishtanks, K&N panel filter, SHOnut reinforced motor mounts, SFCs, Perf. Plus Y-pipe, Summitracing Turbo Mufflers

[email protected]

 

[Toolman]

Originally posted by drivinhard:
At 2950 lbs, race rubber and some good binders, I'll be able to get all up in the mirrors of the the blower guys at the covention

But remember, after you pass the blower guys you will still have to contend with me

(still at full weight!)

 

[drivinhard]

I'll be ready

I have some seat time at summit and plan to get some more before the convention, so I can make any tweaks if need be to the 89. Probably be slower in the summer heat, but hoping to run in the 1:28 - 1:29 range in the fall.

2950 lb is a very optimistic goal w/ the cage! The cage is going to add a lot of weight back into it, still trying to figure out exactly how much.

Anybody know how much DOM 095 tubing weighs per ft?



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White 92
SR71SHO - racer '89

 

[ThrillSHO]

The weight depends on the O.D.

1-1/4" 095 DOM is 1.172lbs/ft
1-1/2" 095 DOM is 1.426lbs/ft
1-3/4" 095 DOM is 1.679lbs/ft


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ThrillSHO Racing
93 ATX SHO
UDPs, LPM, 80mm MAF, K&N w/CAI Snorkle, 8mm Taylor wires, Koni Struts, High Rate Linear Springs, Camber plates, Adjustable rear control arms, Touque box brace, Poly bushings, 24mm front SB, 26mm rear SB, Alum SFB, Full-length SFCs, Front & Rear STBs, SS Y-pipe, Borla Cat-back, TransGo Shift Kit, Relocated battery, Five point harness, Five 2" gauges below the CD player, 225/45s on 16x7s
Very Low Very Fast

 

[DeaconBlue]

Say what you want (I'm a mechanical engineer) I understand most of the equations. My '95 MTX had the following front brakes;

10.7" stock brakes with 215 tires
11.6" '96 brakes, CarboTech pads, SS lines, 225 tires
13" Baer/Cobra combo brakes, CarboTech pads, 245 tires
then I modified the rear load proportional valve to allow full fluid flow to the rear calipers.

Each time the car's brakes preformed "better", with shorter stops, reduced fade, and better pedal feel.

Next upgrade will be 11.6" rear brakes



------------------
95 MTX
with a few mods

 

[drivinhard]

Thanks for that listing.

Std 'ole 1 3/4"...



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White 92
SR71SHO - racer '89

 

[tbalderm]

I have also had real world experience with larger brakes DO equal shorter stopping distance. I did an upgrade on a 01 Grand Prix (I know...) from 11" rotors to 12" rotors. Testing performed new 11" rotors and pads -breaking approx 600 miles. Then the same was done with 12" rotors. The difference was very noticable and when measurements were taken using a GTech, it was found that the larger rotors produced stopping distances, on the average, 10 feet shorter (60-0 mph)133.5 feet vs 142.5 feet. This test was later confirmed via "offical" testing (using a radar gun and measured distances).

Just my take.

 

[Jibberish18]

I understand that the car might not always have less stopping distance if your tires won't grip and you don't have ABS, but it's kinda weird to say that upgrading your brakes won't give you better stopping distance especially after the whole performance market recommends cross drilled, slotted, or bigger brakes.

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1990 Sable 3.0
"My goal is to have the ultimate Sable in road handling performance"

 

[93SHO]

For what it's worth, I have Baer brakes and I have never felt a SHO with more stopping power... and yes I've been in a SHO with the '96 upgrade.

Why don't we all put bicycle V-brakes on our rims? We'll save weight and have no fade at all!

Next time you're in Colorado, we can go for a drive and I will show you the difference.

I'm convinced that cross-drilling is basically useless. There is less area for the pad to come in contact with, making the operation hotter.

But hey, I have the most useless mods out of anyone in the forum (like the BBBs, 80mm MAF, and the custom dual exhaust) and I'm now going to add the Baer brakes to that list.

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1993 MTX.
Mods - Quaife, Baer brakes, 2" dual exhaust, Dynomax mufflers, H brace, Koni struts, front camber/caster plates, rear control arms, SHO shop springs, solid aluminum radiator, big bore butterflies, cold air, K&N, kevlar clutch, high flow cats, 80mm MAF, front and rear strut tower braces, 16" ROH Sniper wheels, BFGoodrich KDWS 225/16/50 ZR4 tires, and LPM

Sitting in basement - Garrett turbo (who knows...)

 

[SHOed_up]

Would cross drilling or slotting help when stopping in the rain/wet conditions? Since it seems to me the rotors get covered in water, water makes steam, steam acts as gas cushion therefore less friction. I've noticed on my poor stock brakes that stopping in the wet sucks. Pedal feel sucks and stopping distance is huge. Maybe it's just me though. Come on, say yes. I'm planning on doing baers in the spring and an excuse to get them drilled would be really nice an look cool

.

 

[DemonNeno]

You guys are missing the main point being made here... Bigger brakes DO make you stop better, given you equally upgrade everything else. ****, if you think your tires make a difference in your stopping distance, check into your suspension, too. But the main point being brought across is that a typical SHO (street driven...) wouldn't need anything larger then a 11.6" rotor.. Anything bigger is better in terms of heat management. And I'm sure if you can get the devils gum and slap it on yer wheels, you'll have enough rubber to back up the stopping poewr of a 13" rotor hugged by a 4-pistoned caliper on some pricey pads... Otherwise, expect that pedal to pulsate as your ABS barf at the lack of gripping power your tires can possibly cope with... So before you start whining (THERE'S NO WHINING ON THE SHOFORUMS.. heheh.. I like saying that, sorry...) and asking how people DARE to believe such a foolish thing.. Compare your braking system to your drivetrain.. You might have a strong motor w/ losta power, but without a strong trans you ain't got JACK! And you might get that strong trans sooner or later, but without better rubber you ain't goin' NO WHERE! And then you finally get all that rubber you wanted and modded that suspension up and yer all set and staging.. but with two broken halfshafts you'll just keep staging for that push off the track! So, in very shorter words, without keeping all braking aspects in mind.. all you're doing is wasting your time.. Oh yeah, lets not forget the "I have ABS, i can stop regardless of weather conditions!" attitude because anyone who's been on ice w/ ABS will tell you just how scary it is when the pedal just keeps pumpin' rock hard abs reflexes and your car is barely slowing down because the brakes keep kickin on and off.. and.. damn, there's just so much to cars... heh...

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Neno & The '91 Dark SHO
SHOCAGO Enthusiasts Club - http://www.shocago.com
137K Mi., Black on Black/Mocha Interior, '94 Mark VIII Rims, 225/50VR16 Comp TA VR, Rod Shifter Converted (Broken stabilizer bolt, still sitting in my trans housing!), SHO Nut Reinforced Motor mounts, Coneless, 3.2L larger crossover tube for intake installed (sure did make the intake LOUDER!), Delrin SFBs, Semi-loud exhaust system...

Ready To Install: Subframe Connectors and Intrax springs instead of Eibachs?

Coming Soon?Konis/Poly setup

 

[ThrillSHO]

Finally a Believer!

Is it possible the after-market is motivated to mis-represent the performance of their products just to make money? Say it isn't so!

You have to understand the basis of comparison in order to evaluate a product. Which generally means - change one thing at a time for a controlled comparison. If you increase the rotor size, number of pistons, width of tire and pad Cf all at once, how do you know what is responsible for the change in performance?

I'm not condemning anyone's decision to go really big. There are plenty of good reasons to upgrade. I'm just saying, understand what you're getting for your money. There is probably a point of diminishing returns where you could get more bang for your buck elsewhere.

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ThrillSHO Racing
93 ATX SHO
UDPs, LPM, 80mm MAF, K&N w/CAI Snorkle, 8mm Taylor wires, Koni Struts, High Rate Linear Springs, Camber plates, Adjustable rear control arms, Touque box brace, Poly bushings, 24mm front SB, 26mm rear SB, Alum SFB, Full-length SFCs, Front & Rear STBs, SS Y-pipe, Borla Cat-back, TransGo Shift Kit, Relocated battery, Five point harness, Five 2" gauges below the CD player, 225/45s on 16x7s
Very Low Very Fast

Coming soon: Coil-overs, shaved SFBs and smaller front swaybar!
Even Lower, Even Faster

 

[Toolman]

The Baer's are $595. The 96 upgrade is anywhere from $150 to $400 depending on how much foot work you do yourself or if you just want to buy a kit. Either way, the Baer's are worth the $195-445 extra to me. One, my car is heavy and I go fast, at the track. Two, I like how the look. There is a weight penalty, but my wheels more than make up for it. Is the stopping distance any less then the 96 upgrade? Nothing substabtial everything else on the car being equal...for the first few stops. But after a 10 or so laps and more than a few 100-20 braking sessions, the Baer's are hands down better, there are no two ways about it. If I were only going to race at my local track (Hallet, the one during the 01 Convention), which requires some braking skills to be sure but is not a high speed track (100 mph in a NA), and were in a lightened car, than even for heavy track use the 11.6 upgrade would probably suffice. Anyway, I say get the Baer's. There are many more things that people spend money on that does nothing for performance (gauge faces, tint, and in many cases catback exhausts), so even if the Baer's did not provide you with a substantial braking improvement that you could use, the look COOL.