Suggestions - 3.2 MTX maintenance

[SHOclass]

'95 3.2 MTX, currently has 196,000+ miles.
Rod bearings were done around 190k
Timing belt done around 175k
CPS and CPS both done around 175k
3.2 swap and rod bearings done at NESHO
Also has hi flow Y with cats

Currently it has a small oil leak and is blowing smoke out the exhaust under hard acceleration. It feels lathargic and not as "healthy" as it should.

I want to order new plugs, wires, seals (not sure which ones, valve? all?)
I want to bring the car back up to spec and maintain it properly.
Just wanted to check in with you all for any suggestions (what parts to use and maintenance), i'm sure i'm missing something.

Thanks in advance.

I also mentioned a while back that some of us NESHO people should meet up or do something in the near future, would love to stay in touch since I don't use facebook.

 

[rubydist]

oil smoke out the exhaust under hard acceleration is ring blow-by. The real fix for that is to pull heads, pull pistons and re-ring or at least clean up the rings and ring grooves. Short of that, you can try some seafoam or similar product. I have had modest success with AutoRx, but its expensive to do it the way they tell you to do it.

a SHO with 196k will also need valve stem seals. bad valve seals will result in oil burning and can smoke while coasting.

If it was done correctly, it should have gotten new front crank seal and new cam seals at the time of timing belt change; in that case they should be fine.

Before you change plugs and wires, check to see if there is oil in the plug wells. If so, that is some of your power loss, and you will need new valve cover gaskets. Do the gaskets, plugs and wires at the same time.

You will want to confirm that the cam timing is correct, as even a 1 tooth error there can cause significant performance loss. Remove top and bottom timing covers, turn engine by hand until both cam sprocket marks align with the timing cover mark (confirm both cams match up) and then confirm that the crank sprocket mark aligns with the bump on the oil pump.

 

[SHOclass]

I ended up replacing plugs, wires, valve cover gaskets, and the manifold gaskets about 3 months ago...Sure enough the car still smokes under hard accel which rubydist^ had explained to me the cause ... and I knew that.

What is strange to me however, is I don't feel any sort of gain in power which is very surprising to me seeing how the plugs and wires were 8+ years old and very worn looking when they came out. It still leaks a little oil when it sits, (rear main seal?) although not as bad as it was.

Another difference I noticed is that after that work, my temp gauge stays cold....and barely creeps up to the "L" in "NORMAL"...before that work was done it had always hovered right around the middle very consistently. Any ideas?

How difficult/expensive to pull the heads and re-ring?...It seems like that is where most of the power loss is stemming from and it almost feels as though the car has bad exhaust leak and the power is just not converting to the wheels the way it should.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Slo-Sho]

What color is the smoke? Black? Blue? White? I would be leaning toward a dirty MAF and 02's.... A compression test will rule out bad rings and give an overall health report of the motor. The sender for the dash gauge is near the coil pack so you may have disturbed that connector. It runs off resistance and it wouldn't surprise me if the connector had some.

 

[SHOclass]

The smoke is blueish white under acceleration.
The MAF sensor is clean and the O2 sensors were replaced when I upgraded the exhaust about two years ago.
How could the connector be disturbed? should I check for residue or if its loose?

Thanks for the response.

 

[Slo-Sho]

I was hoping you would have said black smoke....After you do the compression test, which is now pretty much mandatory IMHO because if the motor is whooped it will be a waste of time and money to put any more effort into a spent engine w/o tearing it down 1st. Once those bores and slugs are worn down they're worn down, 'ain't no tune up gonna bring it back to spec.

 

[rubydist]

Have you ever even open up a SHO motor, slo-sho? Cause you sure don't talk like you have.

I have NEVER seen a SHO motor with worn bores. The issue on these engines is that the low-tension rings get carboned up and stuck in the pistons. That makes lots of extra blow-by until the pistons get fully up to temperature. If one listens carefully at startup, it is typically possible to hear the piston slap from the rocking pistons because of the stuck rings.

The solution is to remove the pistons, soak them to soften up the carbon buildup, then remove the rings and clean up the rings and ring grooves. To do that requires removing the heads, and while they are off it only makes sense to replace the valve stem seals. The most risky part of the whole project is that new head gaskets are required, and several guys have reported issues with head gasket failures on the only brand of gaskets that are still available.

 

[Slo-Sho]

Have you ever even open up a SHO motor, slo-sho?

Yes of course!, plenty of times especially on this sweet on ramp I know of. Oh, you meant disassemble a SHO motor... why yes I have as a matter of fact. I have even modded them too, tee hee.

I have NEVER seen a SHO motor with worn bores.

And you're asking me if I've taken these apart? LOL. The engine just happens to have an excellent piston to rod ratio which helps with the longevity. Doesn't mean they don't wear out. Let's put a boroscope into number 1 and 5 cylinders and look at the thrust side. Would you stake your reputation that the cross hatch on his motor is still uniform to the rest of the bore?

The solution is to remove the pistons, soak them to soften up the carbon buildup, then remove the rings and clean up the rings and ring grooves. To do that requires removing the heads, and while they are off it only makes sense to replace the valve stem seals.

You might be right but you might be WRoon Onnng.

The most risky part of the whole project is that new head gaskets are required, and several guys have reported issues with head gasket failures on the only brand of gaskets that are still available.

You don't say.

 

[rubydist]

I see you found the big "B" which allows you to put stuff in bold. I'm proud of you.
(It doesn't make you any smarter or any more right.)

 

[SHOclass]

Last night I put about 1/4 can of Seafoam in the fuel tank and ran the rest through the manifold while running...instant plumes of white smoke quickly filled the parking lot...Definitely lots of carbon build up and I 100% agree with you ruby that the only long term solution and the right way to repair it is to "remove the pistons, soak them to soften up the carbon buildup, then remove the rings and clean up the rings and ring grooves. To do that requires removing the heads, and while they are off it only makes sense to replace the valve stem seals".

It's a shame because everything else on the car is in working order and I hate to see it sit, but I just don't have the funds right now to maintain it properly.

After Seafoam:
It seems to run noticeably better now and the same amount of throttle response it took me to start lethargically from 1st before the Seafoam is now chirping the tires, power delivery is more noticeable and it pulls much better....I know this is only a temporary bandage and will only make me want to repair it faster.

Oh, and I also put in a whole can in the tank after the initial application...and I have a new fuel filter ready to be installed after this tank is empty....per blackbeast's recommendation.

Thanks Ruby.

 

[rubydist]

Here is what I would do until you find the funds to rebuild: get a quart of acetone, and steal an empty bottle of fingernail polish remover from some female you know. Put about 5 oz. of acetone in the fingernail polish remover bottle and dump that into the gas tank with every fillup. Do this at least a half dozen times. Acetone is very good at cleaning up injectors and loosening carbon buildup, and it is possible that it will loosen up the rings enough that the rings will seal properly.

btw, acetone will remove paint very quickly, so do not spill it. And the fingernail polish remover bottle is one of the few plastics that will stand up to acetone. (fp remover is usually about 50% acetone.)

 

[SHOdded]

Also keep an eye out for sludge in the oil after these carbon cleaning exercises. Good idea oil/MC filter change with cheaper oil after 500 miles, and then change to a good oil/MC filter after another 500-1000 miles.

 

[Off Road SHO]

I know it is difficult to do with these SHO's, but try and keep the rpm's below 3-4000 while all the grime is being loosened up and deposited in the oil. Our oil pumps are high flow and low pressure types, which means that they flow so much oil that the filter can't handle that much through the paper element so the filter's bypass kicks in and sends unfiltered oil around the paper and back into the engine. The oil filter can only clean all of the oil up to about 3,500 rpms.


BTW, ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil is a great ring loosener. A squirt or two in each cylinder, crank with the starter (with the DIS disconnected) a few revolutions and let sit overnight. ATF is a great dissolver.


Tom

 

[sperold]

The improvements you saw with the Seafoam are not temporary. For $10.00, it might be worth another try later on.

Since that worked, try the Marvel Mystery Oil also as it has a better reputation of success than the Seafoam, but it is way more money.

Do the Acetone trick recommended by Rubydist and the direct injection into each cylinder suggested by OffRoadSHO, even if it is just with Automatic Tranny Fluid if the Mystery Oil is a bit too expensive.

I think you have a good chance of success, since your first effort paid off.

 

[SHOclass]

I am forgoing the acetone suggestion, even though I get the intended use and how it would work. After talking to a few of the master techs that I work with they have never heard of, and couldn't recommend using acetone in a vehicle as described.

I am however, using marvel mystery, I will keep the RPM's low for now and will report back after I change the oil and fuel filters after this tank of fuel is gone.

Thanks for all the help so far

 

[sperold]

I suggest you reconsider the acetone treatment.
There is no such thing as bad advice from Rubydist.
Most master tecks work with new vehicles and wouldn't be exposed to home-spun and necessity-driven remedies.

 

[SHOclass]

I wasn't suggesting it was bad advice, and I appreciate all the responses.
I was surprised that the techs I work with said that actually, but I do respect their opinions, They are 20+ years in their careers and have pretty much seen and done it all....And when I asked them about it I was more or less just asking them if they had done it themselves.

I would still consider doing it, I obviously just do not want to damage anything by doing so.

 

[rubydist]

I suggest you reconsider the acetone treatment.
There is no such thing as bad advice from Rubydist.

LOL

remember that free advice is worth what you pay for it.


fyi, the acetone trick came from some chemists years ago who figured that the chemistry was such that adding acetone to the gas should improve mileage. Turns out that was accurate for real gasoline, but the gasoline with ethanol in it (which virtually all gas has now) does not see the improvement - the ethanol counteracts the acetone improvement.

Anyway, along the way, it was discovered that engines that had been run with acetone in the gas are significantly cleaner internally - virtually no carbon buildup on valves, heads, piston crowns, etc. It turns out that a few tanks a year with acetone in the gas are enough to keep the insides of the engine pretty clean.

Is it widely known? No, because its not for Joe Blow, because you have to be careful what you pour the acetone into, and be careful not to dribble it on the paint around the gas door, and you have to take an extra step of pouring the acetone into the gas, but that doesn't make it not work.

 

[Slo-Sho]

SHOclass, you say you work with auto techs? Does your shop possibly have a scantool that will read your OBDI SHO? If you can scan the long term fuel trims and look at other key sensor data and report back to us, that would be monumental. And I'm definitely sure one of those 20+ yr techs has a compression tester, even if you only do the front 3.....

 

[SHOclass]

^ I'm sure they do, but to be honest i'm not going to have the patience or the ability to do that testing consistently. Too many variables of who is working when, if the tools are available, and so on...It would be much easier to do that if I worked in the shop with them, but I don't.

I am changing the oil, filter, and fuel filter today. I have been good about keeping the RPM's below 4K for this tank of gas. (seafoam, mystery oil)
Hopefully the oil isn't too sludge filled and I can get on it a bit.
Should I add Marvel Mystery to the oil this time as well ? how much?

Also per my other question a few posts back, any thoughts on why my temp gauge reads out and stays so low?