Startups during winter storage

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stephen newberg

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Well, last winter was the first that I had the old girl sitting for the season and just covering her up and doing nothing did not work well. By spring stuff was stiff and stale. So this year I am leaving her under cover but not under a fitted cover and so far starting her up, getting to operating temps, and then driving for about 15 minutes once a month, but I am not sure if that is often enough.

Opinions?

pax, smn
 

sperold

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More than you need. I am assuming you are storing it outdoors.
If you start it once a month (pick your days by the temperature) and simply move it back and forth its own car-length, you are doing enough to keep things from siezing.
If the temperature is punishingly cold (like now), then put a battery charger on it for a few hours to wake-up your battery. Use the brakes to stop you in your little jaunts.
Take it for a drive if you want, if snow is not too slushy and salty. That way you are clearing the exhaust system of the water that forms.
I usually have my summer vehicles insured for only fire & theft over the bad season, so that keeps me from going on the little drive. If you phone the insurance broker, they can "hold coverage" for the day and it is no charge.
 

My_Silver_SHO

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I keep my SHO indoors and try only to drive on dry days.

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stephen newberg

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Mine is under shelter, but it is like a doorless garage. Up here it really never gets cold or snowy enough to make it worth totally closing in the front. The building used to be a wood and tool shed, but now is a two car shelter with the 911 on the bigger side and the SHO slipped into the smaller bay.

I was thinking about rigging up a trickle charge from a small solar panel, but I am not sure we get enough winter light to make that work well. I do not want to lug the battery in and out of the house, though. Maybe just disconnecting one of the terminals to prevent there being a draw from the vehicle electronics?

pax, smn
 

sperold

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You can go to WalMart, to the section where they sell batteries, cables and terminals, and for $5.00 Canadian, you can buy a battery terminal with a green **** on it. You put it on the positive battery post and hook your existing cable terminal onto it. When you want to disengage your battery, turn the **** (to loosen it). When you want to start it, tighten the ****.
It actually works. For some reason, I have one SHO that will drain a battery in a month or so, and another that you never have to check.
 

stephen newberg

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I will have to go take a look at one of those. Normally I do not go into Walmart. Sounds like a bit simpler than lifting the negative cable off the terminal every few weeks and then having to put it back on again. Thanks for the pointer. :)

pax, smn
 

SHO1

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Mine is under shelter, but it is like a doorless garage. Up here it really never gets cold or snowy enough to make it worth totally closing in the front. The building used to be a wood and tool shed, but now is a two car shelter with the 911 on the bigger side and the SHO slipped into the smaller bay.

I was thinking about rigging up a trickle charge from a small solar panel, but I am not sure we get enough winter light to make that work well. I do not want to lug the battery in and out of the house, though. Maybe just disconnecting one of the terminals to prevent there being a draw from the vehicle electronics?

pax, smn

How much/long light you get? they don't always need sunlight. You can find a wide selection of solar trickle chargers from $20 on up at Amazon. numerous places they can be found.
 

yamahaSHO

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I wouldn't bother starting the car until it's warm and you're ready to start driving it. I stored my SHO for 11 years like that, my STi for 5 years, and doing the same with my S2000. Unless you really take it out and get things hot, you're just introducing moisture.

My STi and S2000 are sitting on a desulfating trickle charger, that's about the only thing I've done. The garage is sealed and I run a heater all the time. Lowest temp it has gotten on these -10F nights is about 42F.

Upon first start, I cut fuel and crank the car over a few times to get oil around, then I'll start it.
 

stephen newberg

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How much/long light you get? they don't always need sunlight. You can find a wide selection of solar trickle chargers from $20 on up at Amazon. numerous places they can be found.

That is a good suggestion. I will take a look there. But not a lot of light. I am above the 49th parallel, so a totally clean horizon would give a short day, and my sky shot to the south is not totally clear. Actually, there is a good sized mountain range over that way. I would guess I have a location where I might be able to get unshaded (though not in direct sun) for about 6 hours or so during winter. Of course, its Vancouver Island, a location not exactly known for much sun during winter in the first place. We tend to rain a tad. :)

pax, smn
 

stephen newberg

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I wouldn't bother starting the car until it's warm and you're ready to start driving it. I stored my SHO for 11 years like that, my STi for 5 years, and doing the same with my S2000. Unless you really take it out and get things hot, you're just introducing moisture.

I tried that and it did not work well at all. Parts froze up and dried out and the leather inside was not happy either. But as noted, I do not have a sealed and heated storage location, but rather unsealed completely and no heat.

But when I have run the car so far this year, I have run it to all over warm, engine and interior. I have so far been taking laps around the area to keep everything in the suspension moving also, but am considering the suggestion just to run it back and forth a bit on the property. That might be enough since the ground is not all flat, level, etc.

pax, smn
 

yamahaSHO

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I tried that and it did not work well at all. Parts froze up and dried out and the leather inside was not happy either.
I fail to see how starting the car every once and awhile will cure this. Treat the seats and any associated parts prior to storage.

IBut when I have run the car so far this year, I have run it to all over warm, engine and interior. I have so far been taking laps around the area to keep everything in the suspension moving also, but am considering the suggestion just to run it back and forth a bit on the property. That might be enough since the ground is not all flat, level, etc.

pax, smn

Unless you're completely burning off all moisture intoduced during the warming of cold parts, you literally are doing more harm than good... That, and you'd just be driving the car through salt anyway. Moving frozen suspension is also less than desireable than just letting it set. You can wrap the struts/springs to try and keep crap out and cold air from directly hitting it.
 

Ishodu

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I have always just removed the battery and left it for the entire season. Like Jason said its likely introducing more moisture. Also when your leaving a warm car like that in a unoccupied area its an attractant for a rodent looking for a warm place to hide.
 

stephen newberg

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I fail to see ... ...That, and you'd just be driving the car through salt anyway. Moving frozen suspension is also less than desireable than just letting it set. You can wrap the struts/springs to try and keep crap out and cold air from directly hitting it.

I do not fail to see it, I have seen it. Alternator and other belt driven parts, including idlers and the belt itself showed problems when not in use for the long, wet Vancouver Island winter.

As per salt, they do not use it here. And I have been driving the car until it is completely heated and dry, including the suspension. You just have to pick a dry day to start on.

But thank you for your thoughts on the matter.

pax, smn
 

yamahaSHO

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They do not use salt in snow land? None? Then why store the car for winter?

What exactly were the problems experienced; I'd like to pick that apart for you. ;)
 

stephen newberg

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They do not use salt in snow land? None? Then why store the car for winter?

No, almost none used on the Island, but of course, we have almost no snow either. And at that we are in the Cowichan Valley, the warmest location in the Great White North. Often the climate here is compared to that of Tuscany in Italy. We grow palm trees and figs here. Victoria, a city of a quarter of a million with a draw area of double that 100 km south at the lower end of the Island, and which is almost as warm, had a big budget surplus a number of years ago and decided to splurge it on a second snow plow, just in case. :)

The reason I do not drive the car in the winter any more, or the spring and fall, for that matter, other than to warm it up, is I picked up a new daily driver, a 2011 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S a bit over a year ago, and drive it most of the time instead. The SHO had a full restoration in 2010, so now is over to mainly a sunny day Show and Shine car. But there is no easy way to make inside heated storage for it, so it will have to live outside in the two car wood shed. Rural British Colombia is a pretty strange place. But a perfect one for classy older cars, and they are just everywhere around here. Its pretty much a local hobby.

pax, smn
 

shomethe$$$

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I'm on the startup side of the debate, I had similar problems with the SHO engine when it sat outside even covered, doesn't matter if its hot or cold, it didn't like not being started, you have to start it once a week.

The problems I saw were flat spots on the drive belts, squeeky belts, pulley idlers bearings were tighter on the spot where the tension was, so they made noise on initial start-up. Yes it goes away, so does the squeeling but the damage is already done, just loosen the tensioner upon storage or start it up regularly. The crank dampener rubber formed cracks, it didn't like the cold. But let me go internal, having polished surfaces on other steel parts even in my garage, they start to corrode within two weeks even with WD40 or grease them, I can't imagine a cylinder bore with some open valves exposed to that cold, the rings will begin to seize against the cylinder wall. I have no proof of it but looking my other steel surfaces rust they should too, have you seen pitted steel? it can't be fixed. Can you say loss of compression. It's a solid steel block, it can be ran in the cold, so I don't see the issue starting it in the cold but I do see an issue letting it sit 3-4 months hot or cold.

Lets go deeper, valve springs, do you really think they will have the same tension after being compressed 3-4 months without a heat cycle or being uncompressed? Again, I have no proof, but why take the risk especially on high performance engines which rely on spring tension to achieve high rpm's? Start the engine, you'll be fine.. Cam profiles, another polished steel surface, unless that valve cover is tightly sealed, I know mine wasn't (it was vented to air), it will begin to rust. I have no proof but you know what I'm getting at. I can't imagine the cam chain tensioner's after a long sit, can't be good. The chain rivet's, the chain pads are not immersed in oil, let them air out, you're screwed. The tbelt tensioner, just another bearing that can create a flat spot if not turned. Post #21 may ring a bell.
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=98177

Crank seals, cam seals, they all start getting hard and brittle, they need lubrication, they need hot oil splashing on them periodically.

Power steering pump, the oil it usually so thick in the cold or long storage that when you start the car, it whines. Not being started could lead to the relief valve being stuck etc etc. Not a problem if you start it. AC compressor clutch, has to be ran to make it last. Same goes for the water pump.

Hoses, are rock hard after they sit a few days in the cold or long storage, if you accidentally compress them by hand, they will crack, not a problem if you start the car.

Fly wheel surface, thats not air tight, I can't proof it forms rust on it but I'm not going to take the risk. Pressure plate fingers, they'll start to rust as well where the TOB contacts the fingers, I have to proof but you get my point. Clutch cable, that thing feels like it is about to break when it hasn't been exercised in a while, why take the risk. Fork lever bushing, that plastic is exposed to the cold, it will begin to crack. Brass synchro's, if you leave it in gear, it will seize on the the gear snychro teeth. My old SHO 5th gear synchro actually cured its grinding after it sat for a few months, crazy. The ring gear is not totally immersed in tranny fluid, that can't be good. Not a problem if you start and run it in gear.

Fuel begins to change color and smell after a few weeks, I like to run mine low and run it out, some like to keep it full to keep the gas tank from eating itself unless they put some stabilizer. I had a plastic one, so I didn't see an issue.

What about electronics, start with the fuel pump, as a person who fixes cars constantly, fuel pumps seize up in the cold or a long storage, it happened on my daily drive just this week. They need to be run pretty much each day. What about the ECU circuitry, you really think those capacitors and components are rated at subzero windshield temps, I wouldn't trust them to be. The CCRM is another one, you think those mechanical relay's engage properly after sitting for 3-4 months in the sub zero? Then you have the cam sensor, crank sensor, coil pack, all begin to corrode, mine did, I had to take the coil off and clean the mounting surface. The o2 sensors take a lot longer to get into closed loop when they've been sitting in the cold or storage, I had to replace on because it was lagging so bad. You wouldn't notice unless you have a tweecer. I've never seen a stuck fuel injector only a failed one, but I can't imagine the storage being kind to its internal wiring, those misfires are hard to find. The alternator brushes, all have spring tension. Has anyone turned an electric motor shaft after its been sitting for a few weeks, especially when you know how easy it was to turn before you stopped using it. Its a big difference. Same with the starter brushes.

As long as you do a fresh oil change before storage, you shouldn't have to worry about moisture which causes crank cancer or oil sludge under the cap, I've never seen it on a regularly oil changed car. But you still need to start it. I'll take the risk on the moisture in the exhaust versus all the other stuff I just mentioned, I've never had an issue with rotted out mufflers or tail pipes but for the guys that run a cat, it will clog up, they need to drive it. Once you shut it down it will get moisture, nothing you can do about it, but its a risk I'm willing to take.

Suspension parts will begin to crack, i notice them cracking just from sitting, hot or cold. Same with the interior dash's & trim, luckily I've never had a leather car, perhaps cover them? CV joints, hot or cold, they will stick after sitting. Wheel bearing flat spots, I guess you could jack it up and put it on jack stands but then the bushings don't like that. Only thing to do is drive the car or exercise & **** the suspension I've worked on a boat load of cars, one's that people used to buy from auctions and they sat a long time, they have some of the weirdest problems because they sat. So many automatic transmissions fail after they've been sitting, hard shifting, late shifting, stuck solenoids, flashing Drive light, blown seals...list is endless. The cars were sold because of body damage not a trans issue, that happened because it sat. Stuck thermostats, before they realize its a blown head gasket. Weird water leaks, cracked intakes. Parts that were all recently replaced go bad once the car is started after storage. Car's don't like to sit. I always got good deals on car's that sat not knowing the problems that lie ahead, feel sorry for those that have no mechanical skills.
 

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