So after readiing for a while? my no start

[Black Bart]

Car was working great, just installed a power steering pump, line and a pully bearing, fixed a few other things, struts, tie rod, new tires, bbs wheels, radiator hoses, battery terminals. Care ran good, rode good, handled good, drove it about 150 miles, filled up at a gas station, car died 10 miles later. I brought it home, thought it might have got water. you could periodicly get it to start with either and it would run, sometimes good, sometimes rough. I didn't have time to fix it so I took it to a friends shop. He pulled the plug off the MAF and it started. I ordered a MAF from Ford as I have had bad luck with used sensors and aftermarket ones. 120$ later, it started right up, he let it idle for about an hour. It started multiple times. I picked it up, drove it about 3miles to my shop and it wouldn't start again. Then later in the day, it started, then stalled. Later that night, it started and ran. I drove it in the shop and wanting to make sure it wasn't the fuel in the tank, I drained it. Put in new gas. Didn't change anything.
So, this is what I have tested so far.
fuel pressure is at 30, and used the pump to get the last half gallon out of the tank when I drained it so I know I have flow, pressure and regulator are working. I had the gauge on it once when it did start, and didn't see anything different from when it wouldn't start so I know I have good fuel to the injectors.

I have checked for spark when it was a no start and i have fire from the coil pack.

When it starts, it is like nothing is wrong, first flop, which tells me there is no timing belt jump issues and when it runs, it runs smooth.

The only thing I can think of to maybe direct someone is that I have made it stall a couple times, and not start after by revving it up, and letting off the gas completely while not in gear.

also, it matters not if the car is hot or cold

Is there an low oil shut off switch maybe. Though I heard once these motors had one. Maybe this is failing or the wiring to it is bad?

can the temp sensor in the air box cause this? This car is driven in the winter and sees alot of salt and calcium. It would get sucked into the air box as water vapor off the road.

My motor ground strap is tight and clean, so the motor is grounded

Any other sensors that can cause a complete shut down and also a no start ?

any help would be great.

Thanks for any help, and if you need help with a sled, I can reciprocate.

Scott

 

[FREAK_SHO]

Failing / failed fuel pump? plugged fuel sock on fuel pump.

 

[Devin]

How does it die?

 

[Black Bart]

fuel flow is fine, pressure is fine. If fuel is not going in the motor, it is because the injectors are not cycling. I will be checking that with a light tonight.

 

[Irish Pride]

Sounds like classic Crank Position Sensor(CPS) symptoms to me. I think a front 60K is in your future.

My Gen 2 just started this. I was rearranging my driveway and had it idling. I went to move it and it stalled and was dead in the water. Crank, crank, crank, crank.....nothing. Frustrated I just let it sit where it was. A week later it cranked right up and I was able to move it.

 

[Black Bart]

any way to tell for sure? When it is not working, is there a continuity test or ohms test I can do to make sure?

 

[Irish Pride]

Have you pulled the codes yet?

 

[rubydist]

the first thing to do is pull codes.

I agree w/ Irish Pride that it is typical symptoms of crank sensor failure. Sometimes it sets a code, sometimes not. But you have to pull the codes to know if one is there...

 

[Black Bart]

so i went out to check codes on a dead car, of course, it started right up. I let it run a bit, moved it around a little, shut it off a few times, started right back up. on the third of fourth restart, nothing, dead again. I pulled the codes from it and found only that stupid 327 code, nothing that causes a no start (i think)

so more info that might narrow it down, I noticed that the tach works when cranking during a no start. wasn't sure if that was telling of a crank sensor or not.

Thanks again guys, my daughters love this car, one has to drive a prius till i get it fixed.

 

[rubydist]

did you do koeo or koer? you don't need to start it to get the stored codes we are interested in...

driving a prius is serious punishment...

I would change the crank sensor.

 

[Black Bart]

koeo, I couldn't do koeo code reading as it will only start when the stars align. Is an aftermarket crank sensor ok or will it be a problem later? The ford one is about 75$ more than aftermarket.

 

[Black Bart]

nice I have a dead car and we are getting another snow storm. At least it is lined up to the garage door

 

[jimtash]

Did you take off the cam sensor off when you worked on the power steering pump? Did you reinstall it right? The tach signal comes off of it and the needle will jump during cranking when the sensor is bad.

 

[Black Bart]

didn't remove it. I replaced it when I first got the care, about 4 years ago and 25k ago. The last one was soaked in oil. When installing the new one, I think I put a seal in it at the same time(from memory) and drilled a small weep hole below the bearing in the housing so if it ever leaked oil again, it would just drip out.

I just went out and tried it again to see what the tach was doing exactly. of course, it started and runs perfectly, no codes.

From memory, the tach last night when cranking and no start would just come up a little, not like bounce way up. maybe up to 500rpms. Car is running right now. Though I would warm it up and see if I can do a koer test.

 

[Black Bart]

just went out after warm up, did a koeo test, just a 327 and 214 code. I can not get the car to not start now. That is worse than finding out what is wrong with it.

I guess atleast I can move it around the yard. Dont dare drive it anywhere though.

 

[rubydist]

214 is a failure of the cam sensor circuit.

my next step would be to disconnect the cam sensor and see if the car starts. be aware that with the cam sensor disconnected, the pcm will not know which cylinder is #1, so it will have to guess - therefore expect a 1/3 chance that any particular cranking attempt will start the car. you know from experience how long you must crank the car before it starts (when its going to start), e.g. 2 seconds, 3 seconds, etc. so only crank it a little longer than that on each attempt before you turn the key off and make a new attempt.

if the car starts and runs consistently w/o the cam sensor plugged in, then either the new sensor or the circuit is bad. and yes, I have seen new sensors bad right out of the box, so the fact that it is pretty new is irrelevant.

the only other consequence of no cam sensor is no tach.

 

[zoomlater]

214 is a failure of the cam sensor circuit.

my next step would be to disconnect the cam sensor and see if the car starts. be aware that with the cam sensor disconnected, the pcm will not know which cylinder is #1, so it will have to guess - therefore expect a 1/3 chance that any particular cranking attempt will start the car. you know from experience how long you must crank the car before it starts (when its going to start), e.g. 2 seconds, 3 seconds, etc. so only crank it a little longer than that on each attempt before you turn the key off and make a new attempt.

if the car starts and runs consistently w/o the cam sensor plugged in, then either the new sensor or the circuit is bad. and yes, I have seen new sensors bad right out of the box, so the fact that it is pretty new is irrelevant.

the only other consequence of no cam sensor is no tach.

This might be a long shot, but this just happen to me. I was getting an occasional 214 code for months until recently it was happening all the time to the point of no start, rough start, 211 code, check engine light on all the time. After trying all different things, I read on the forum someone found two rubber seals between the cam sensor and plug. When I replaced it before, the seal that was in the cam sensor got stuck in the plug so when I put the new cam sensor in (has the seal already in it) it wasn't seating properly.

 

[Black Bart]

So, last night after not being able to get it not to run, I had thought that maybe it was the gas after all and had resolved to let the rest of the new gas burn out of it, then put in more new gas. My thought was maybe there was some more water or something left in the tank in a low spot and now maybe that was burnt out. I let it idle for about an hour. Went out and did a few restarts to see if it would not start and it didn't.

So with it not starting, I unplugged the cam sensor and tried several times to start it to no avail. So am i throwing a crank sensor at it? If so, aftermarket, used or ford? I doubt this car will see another 20k as it will become my second daughters car and we live a mile from school, and most everything else for that matter.

 

[itwonder]

Strange problem. I know you checked fuel pressure, but do you hear the fuel pump prime each time you turn the ignition from off to on? When it doesn't start, does it hit at all or just turn over? As Rubydist said, when it doesn't start, release key from start position back to on (not back to off), then go to start again. Try 3 times so PCM can figure out where #1 TDC is. While cranking, try holding pedal to floor and continue cranking. When in no-start condition, will it always fire if given a shot of ether?

Changing crank sensor is not a bad idea to rule that out. I am running an aftermarket one, and it works fine.

 

[Black Bart]

So, I got it to not start again. Pulled the cam sensor plug and tried starting it. many times not letting the ignition turn off. Then trying it turning it off. No start. So I ordered a crank sensor since there seems to be no way to check them for intermittent. This happens with sleds. Random shut offs or no starts with no connection to temp or humidity. Hopefully this is all it is.
Ordered another egr valve position sensor as mine is messed up again. Atleast this one was cheaper.

Thanks again to all who helped out. I will post back when I get it on if it worked so it might help someone else chasing this.

Now if I could just find time to finish fixing the rust and paint the car.

Did install nice new tires on BBS Wheels, what a difference in looks. Never liked the stock wheels. Picked up some studded tires for those to run in the winter.