Raybestos Red Clutches are available

[802SHO]

So when my tuner speaks to the transmission not being able to “SAFELY” handle more than 500whp (20+psi), he’s referring to the clutches? How much boost/whp can I make with my SHO? Stock clutches? Upgraded clutches? Thanks!

Safely as in avoiding torque converter and clutch slip. I’m unsure of anyone’s transmission going “boom” other than a poorly serviced ptu breaking or rdu. Someone did experience a driveshaft failure out of the county on the autobahn. CV axles do wear and literally tear….

Anyone know of a transmission case breaking or splitting? I don’t. Anyone know what transmission failure Mike Bambic had in his Flex when he reached 600ahwp ages ago when everyone believed Ford’s BS on the ptu oil being a lifetime (onetime) fill and likely wasn’t following a vigorous preventative maintenance schedule unbeknownst to him at the time.

I think upgraded clutches are going to make a huge difference, shining a new light on the perceived weaknesses of the Ford 6F55, thus proving it isn’t as weak as everyone thought. Hopefully creates a tidal wave of new aftermarket interest and support

 

[TJ SHOnuff]

You think if I upgraded the clutches the transmission and engine would handle 600whp?

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

You think if I upgraded the clutches the transmission and engine would handle 600whp?

Nobody knows

 

[SemperTim]

Raybestos uses a known, good, friction material and excellent processes. The fact that they took their time releasing these to make sure they give the exact same attention to them should be mildly reassuring. I had 4 different orders cancelled, so it's been a small group effort on this. The Red has been used in thousands of transmissions in a bunch of applications. What they don't do is claim any HP rating. I know Helix is making a bunch of claims with data and I'm sure they are pretty accurate, but what I think we're going to run into is grip from a suboptimal AWD system. Take my opinion or leave it, but I honestly cannot fathom the benefit of clutches to support 1000hp when the rest of the drivetrain cannot.

Off topic: I think a better performance solution would be to figure a way to increase the power to the rear. Currently it's set at what, 150ftlbs? I know 50/50 isn't optimal from a performance standpoint, but it's better than 75F/25R for those pushing the 600hp area. The DS, RDU/Differential, and axles are way too small. I wonder if anyone knows the axle ratio and if there's a common IRS pumpkin that will fit and simply have a 4x4 setup. I dunno, just typing out loud.

The RS200 has a 50/50 AWD setup and it's not exactly considered "elegant" around a track. Although, it's a Group B rally car, so tkae that for what it's worth.

 

[802SHO]

Following small minded individuals leads nowhere. Anyone actually out in the field giving this platform there all is going to derive a much more comprehensive understanding of what this platform needs and can handle vs an idea or belief based off nothing much more than a written text of outdated information and/or belief related to such.

 

[SemperTim]

Following small minded individuals leads nowhere. Anyone actually out in the field giving this platform there all is going to derive a much more comprehensive understanding of what this platform needs and can handle vs an idea or belief based off nothing much more than a written text of outdated information and/or belief related to such.

What's outdated and how is it small minded? If I'm wrong on something, please correct me. I'm not going to argue with anything proven. I probably could have worded it better. You're trying to figure out what the limit is and the current limit seems to be clutch slip, so it makes sense to solve it the best way possible.

Honestly I've had no time to dedicate to this platform in probably a decade and certainly not in the driveline area. I do brakes and suspension, mainly. This post has gotten a little bit of juices flowing, but I cannot go searching through a decade of posts to get up to speed.

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

What's outdated and how is it small minded? If I'm wrong on something, please correct me. I'm not going to argue with anything proven. I probably could have worded it better. You're trying to figure out what the limit is and the current limit seems to be clutch slip, so it makes sense to solve it the best way possible.

Honestly I've had no time to dedicate to this platform in probably a decade and certainly not in the driveline area. I do brakes and suspension, mainly. This post has gotten a little bit of juices flowing, but I cannot go searching through a decade of posts to get up to speed.

RDU and ATC haven't been neglected. Efforts have been made, mostly unsuccessfully. Research has been done on finding something that matches...none exist.

As for a ratio, its 1:1 with the PTU. You will severally mess things up if you only change the RDU as the final drive ratio is done within the transmission. PTU steps it down, RDU steps it right back up equally. Any changes to final drive need to be done within the trans.

 

[SemperTim]

RDU and ATC haven't been neglected. Efforts have been made, mostly unsuccessfully. Research has been done on finding something that matches...none exist.

I worded that poorly. My definition of "fits" means fabrication to the subframe only: no interference with the body, suspension, etc. I've seen the upgrades that have been done to the RDU and PTU. I do plan to replace my PTU soon as I've neglected it and it's an early one, so not much to work with. Would like to do that at the same time as rebuilding a trans that I can swap in.

As for a ratio, its 1:1 with the PTU. You will severally mess things up if you only change the RDU as the final drive ratio is done within the transmission. PTU steps it down, RDU steps it right back up equally. Any changes to final drive need to be done within the trans.

This, I know. I spent the last 15-20 minutes trying to find the gear tooth counts for either the Ring and pinion on the rear diff or the PTU gears. I have the input, idler, and the pinion for the PTU. I cannot seem to find a picture of a top-down view to count the teeth on the ring gear and gear attached to the same shaft. That will give the final ratio that the rear differential will need to be. I found a few pictures of the RDU sticker on ebay listings that have 2.93 on it, which makes sense as my estimates from inaccurately counting the PTU teeth in pictures puts it in the high 2.xx to low 3.xx.

Really didn't want to derail this thread. I'm happy people are still doing stuff. Too many just give up when something goes wrong with these things.

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

I worded that poorly. My definition of "fits" means fabrication to the subframe only: no interference with the body, suspension, etc. I've seen the upgrades that have been done to the RDU and PTU. I do plan to replace my PTU soon as I've neglected it and it's an early one, so not much to work with. Would like to do that at the same time as rebuilding a trans that I can swap in.

This, I know. I spent the last 15-20 minutes trying to find the gear tooth counts for either the Ring and pinion on the rear diff or the PTU gears. I have the input, idler, and the pinion for the PTU. I cannot seem to find a picture of a top-down view to count the teeth on the ring gear and gear attached to the same shaft. That will give the final ratio that the rear differential will need to be. I found a few pictures of the RDU sticker on ebay listings that have 2.93 on it, which makes sense as my estimates from inaccurately counting the PTU teeth in pictures puts it in the high 2.xx to low 3.xx.

Really didn't want to derail this thread. I'm happy people are still doing stuff. Too many just give up when something goes wrong with these things.

I've got all of that info available, lots of detailed pics and even have a disassembled PTU and RDU in the garage as we speak.

Again....any final drive ratio change to be done will need to be done in the trans. You cannot just change the RDU independently from the PTU. This will cause major issues between front/rear rotation and potentially introsuce a ton of traction control problems. As for the gearing in the PTU, it isn't a traditional ring gear that is removable from a carrier hub, like in a differential. You'd literally need to cut every single gear arrangement in the PTU.

And to what end? Why would you do all that when changing the final drive in the trans is what would give you the same result.

All these things have been discussed. Do a search of the forum, you'll get lots of answers. Please don't talk to any of us about "giving up easily," you're not doing anything that hasn't already been done with the platform. Lots of innovators already here.

 

[SemperTim]

I've got all of that info available, lots of detailed pics and even have a disassembled PTU and RDU in the garage as we speak.

Again....any final drive ratio change to be done will need to be done in the trans. You cannot just change the RDU independently from the PTU. This will cause major issues between front/rear rotation and potentially introsuce a ton of traction control problems. As for the gearing in the PTU, it isn't a traditional ring gear that is removable from a carrier hub, like in a differential. You'd literally need to cut every single gear arrangement in the PTU.

And to what end? Why would you do all that when changing the final drive in the trans is what would give you the same result.

All these things have been discussed. Do a search of the forum, you'll get lots of answers. Please don't talk to any of us about "giving up easily," you're not doing anything that hasn't already been done with the platform. Lots of innovators already here.

I think you're confused on what I'm saying: I don't want to change any gear ratios, I want to install a different differential assembly in the rear to remove the variable of power being reduced to the rear. The RDU, with the viscous coupler, will slip, no matter what. If a regular differential is installed that is the exact same ratio as the stock unit (currently seeing 2.93, which matches BMW, but again I want to get it as accurate as possible), it will make it a 50/50 split. Will it be driveable? Affects on MPG? Who knows.

If you're willing to count the gear teeth, that would be great as I'd like to get it down to the nearest hundreth.

The giving up part was not towards people developing parts and researching. Believe me when I say, I still do things like that. Takes me years to even get a single thing really going. That was more towards people maintaining (or not) and having one thing break and wonder why it costs "so much to fix", then just getting rid of the car. I've been working with the Merkur brand for over 20 years, you can imagine how that goes.

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

I think you're confused on what I'm saying: I don't want to change any gear ratios, I want to install a different differential assembly in the rear to remove the variable of power being reduced to the rear. The RDU, with the viscous coupler, will slip, no matter what. If a regular differential is installed that is the exact same ratio as the stock unit (currently seeing 2.93, which matches BMW, but again I want to get it as accurate as possible), it will make it a 50/50 split. Will it be driveable? Affects on MPG? Who knows.

If you're willing to count the gear teeth, that would be great as I'd like to get it down to the nearest hundreth.

The giving up part was not towards people developing parts and researching. Believe me when I say, I still do things like that. Takes me years to even get a single thing really going. That was more towards people maintaining (or not) and having one thing break and wonder why it costs "so much to fix", then just getting rid of the car. I've been working with the Merkur brand for over 20 years, you can imagine how that goes.

Are you talking about switching to an LSD or removing the RDU entirely? You can't get around the ATC because you will then have no way to allow slippage between the front/rear. You're talking about essentially full-time 4WD...
Thats bad juju.

Or if you keep the ATC, you'd still have the same issues regardless of how big an actual diff you put back there. Only real answer...outside of completely gutting the dricetrain for a Sadev or some other AWD arrangement..is to address the ATC. One guy pinned his coupler, but that made full time 4WD and had issues. He did say it took off like a beast. I have a compromise...I've got a set of more aggressive friction plates for the ATC that I'm experimenting with. This may yield some results. Also changing out a different weight silicon oil could play a part. I just need to find what kind of preload I need for the ATC.

 

[SemperTim]

Are you talking about switching to an LSD or removing the RDU entirely? You can't get around the ATC because you will then have no way to allow slippage between the front/rear. You're talking about essentially full-time 4WD...
Thats bad juju.

Or if you keep the ATC, you'd still have the same issues regardless of how big an actual diff you put back there. Only real answer...outside of completely gutting the dricetrain for a Sadev or some other AWD arrangement..is to address the ATC. One guy pinned his coupler, but that made full time 4WD and had issues. He did say it took off like a beast. I have a compromise...I've got a set of more aggressive friction plates for the ATC that I'm experimenting with. This may yield some results. Also changing out a different weight silicon oil could play a part. I just need to find what kind of preload I need for the ATC.

That makes much more sense. Didn't really think about "give" between the front and rear and forgot most AWD have some sort of center differential. I'll keep an eye out if you have any offerings on those friction plates and rebuilding the viscous coupler. Appreciate the thorough response.

 

[Mahu24]

Are you talking about switching to an LSD or removing the RDU entirely? You can't get around the ATC because you will then have no way to allow slippage between the front/rear. You're talking about essentially full-time 4WD...
Thats bad juju.

Or if you keep the ATC, you'd still have the same issues regardless of how big an actual diff you put back there. Only real answer...outside of completely gutting the dricetrain for a Sadev or some other AWD arrangement..is to address the ATC. One guy pinned his coupler, but that made full time 4WD and had issues. He did say it took off like a beast. I have a compromise...I've got a set of more aggressive friction plates for the ATC that I'm experimenting with. This may yield some results. Also changing out a different weight silicon oil could play a part. I just need to find what kind of preload I need for the ATC.

Was not aware of any upgrades to the friction disks in the coupler, I remember AKD made a horrible attempt at making their own coupler but that apparently didn't work.
When did you start this endeavor!?

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

Was not aware of any upgrades to the friction disks in the coupler, I remember AKD made a horrible attempt at making their own coupler but that apparently didn't work.
When did you start this endeavor!?

I'm well aware of the AKD debacle....in all honesty, I might even be to blame for a lot of it. Not to mention, I own one of those paperweights lol. My efforts started shortly after and I'm "trying" something...kind of picking up where his left off. Idk if it's even going to work, though.

 

[Mahu24]

I'm well aware of the AKD debacle....in all honesty, I might even be to blame for a lot of it. Not to mention, I own one of those paperweights lol. My efforts started shortly after and I'm "trying" something...kind of picking up where his left off. Idk if it's even going to work, though.

What exactly was the flaw in the AKD unit?
You trying to swap out disks in the factory coupler?

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

What exactly was the flaw in the AKD unit?
You trying to swap out disks in the factory coupler?

Much more than that. But let's keep this thread on-topic.

 

[ArthurUSCG]

The Lincoln MKZ had an option Driver's package that included an Focus RS style RDU (constant drive rear diff with clutch packs to each rear axle). I haven't had a chance to looked into seeing if the RDU controller will plug in an work in place of the ATAC controller.

 

[Mahu24]

The Lincoln MKZ had an option Driver's package that included an Focus RS style RDU (constant drive rear diff with clutch packs to each rear axle). I haven't had a chance to looked into seeing if the RDU controller will plug in an work in place of the ATAC controller.

Never heard of that. Got any other details on it?

 

[yaycandy]

The Lincoln MKZ had an option Driver's package that included an Focus RS style RDU (constant drive rear diff with clutch packs to each rear axle). I haven't had a chance to looked into seeing if the RDU controller will plug in an work in place of the ATAC controller.

Yes 2017 and up had it. Not sure if the whole irs rear will fit in a sho or mks. But its is probably close to the same. Dont see Ford developing a whole new rear for one car when the Taurus was still in production.