Random "No Start"

[E1]

No crank, more interestingly - no fuel pump when key is turned before cranking.

I am trying to move my '96 Rosemist around quite a bit lately. On random occasions it won't crank. I take out the key, turn it over in the lock cylinder, and maybe now it cranks. I shift into 'N' from 'P', sometimes cranks, sometimes no. I really don't think it is the Transmission Range Sensor, but I am about willing to try as I have a small box of them.
What if it works? What if it gives me a false sense of well-being to fool me into taking it on a road trip and then F***'s me? I am not the part changing type. I want to diagnose and fix a problem, not throw parts at it and hope it goes away. But these random things sometimes seem to produce false results.

The one thing I notice when it DOESN'T crank is I don't hear the fuel pump when I first put in the key and turn to key on before cranking. (I'm a stickler for priming the fuel system after a car sits a while even if I am not having trouble with the fuel pump backflow restrictor valve.)

Anybody seen this odd symptom before? If I put in the key and the fuel pump fires, I know it will start. What breaks the fuel pump sequence?

 

[sperold]

I have had the ignition switch go bad and it had those symptoms. I am not talking about the rotary thing that has the tumblers that the key fits into; but rather the part buried in the steering column.

I believe your situation involves consideration for the PATS security system and a key with a chip. But I think if you reuse your rotary assembly and key, you may side step that issue. But I would get some advice on that before going too deep.

There is always a chance that you can fix your original ignition switch, but I was not able to fix mine; but yours will be a different switch, so who knows.

 

[stephen newberg]

I agree. This sounds to me like classic wear out of the ignition switch or the key turning the switch. Do you have a spare, mainly unused key? If so, try it and see if the symptoms go away. If they do, the key is the problem. If not, its very possible that the ignition lock mechanism itself is the problem. These are purely mechanical devices subject to wear, and they are not in excess of 20 years old. Lots of turns. Lots of wear. That is where I would look first.

pax, smn

 

[E1]

Thanks guys.
I will check the switch then. Already tried the other key with similar results and they are both original keys, not aftermarket.

Car has just made the hurdle over the mind-blowing 75,000 mile mark, so I doubt it is wear and tear - more likely 'Fordhasbeensittingtoolong-itis'. Still has the Goodyear RSA's it was wearing at the 2006 SHO convention in Memphis. God it was hot that year!

I think I have three or four of these switches laying around and one on the remains of SHO R T S in the driveway.

 

[E1]

Replacement ignition switch installed. No change. Switch was from a '96, same year as the Rosemist.

When I pulled a junkyard motor from a car many moons ago, Larry and me started the car with a screwdriver after some 'delicate' key tumbler modifications....

PATS still lets you start, it just interrupts the ignition like 10 or 15 seconds later.

I think I will go after the TRS next. Once again - I got cars laying around. I got parts, it just makes me nuts throwing parts at something not knowing if I fixed it. There should be a smoking gun somewhere.

Top switch original, replacement lower. Sticker is wet on lower switch because I gave it a bath in silicone and cycled the **** out of it to make sure it was clean and lubricated.

 

[98SF19]

We members are up a creek when Eric starts asking questions!
You haven't mentioned the likelihood of issue with fuel pump. Could the issue be with wiring? Not sure what year the image below is from, and I don't have the circuit diagrams for any of these connections, but I see one ground to the switch and 1 connection hot in start and run (pin I1, circuit 16, red/light green wires) which I assume powers the fuel pump. Verify the correct year's version and holler at shorod if you can't find wiring diagrams.
Tracing wiring sucks, but we're talking about a Rose Mist here . . .

 

[sperold]

Sorry the ignition switch swap did not yield results. But I do think you are in the right area in the car.

There is a tremendous amount of wiring in that steering column and a lot of electrical wiring runs through that wiper stalk contraption and it is always a point of suspicion. Try your starting technique with that stalk unit in different positions.

Another failure that I have experienced is my 2 year old Taurus would shut down while driving, but often would re-start before it coasted to a full stop. After unplugging and reconnecting the huge wiring connectors on the side of the column, I noticed a burn mark in the harness connector. Back then the connector was hundreds of dollars, so I bypassed the original connector scorched wire with another wire spliced into both sides of the connector..... and I never experienced the problem again.

So check over those wiring connectors on the sides of the column for scorch marks, because the car was only 2 years old when this happened to me. Might have something to do with the tilt wheel. So try the tilt wheel in different settings in case it is a wear through on one of the wires.

 

[E1]

Tried the tilt actuation technique.

Replaced the Trans Range Switch.

No joy.

 

[stephen newberg]

Eric, I think it might be worth looking at the keys themselves again. For some reason I figured your car would be at the 200k+ mark like mine, but at that lower miles the switch becomes unlikely. The keys, however, are made of a surprisingly soft metal, and they wear much more than might be expected. Looking at the key sets you are using, are the corners of the ridges worn smooth? If so, all those keys are ending their days for reliable use. I think I have had to replace my keys twice now, though the ignition switch itself remains OK, thought starting to feel a tad loose. Just another consideration.

pax, smn

 

[luigisho]

Been a long time since I had my GenIII.

If power is getting to the fuel pump and the pump is not running then you can make a guess which direction to pursue. Without getting into the tank, can you probe the wiring around the inertia switch or on the way back to the the sending unit to determine if there is power to the sending unit/pump and cross them off the list?

 

[E1]

The starter not cranking and not hearing the fuel pump priming are intertwined.
No power is being offered to the fuel pump or starter when the car decides not to crank.
It is a safety relay effect somehow. Maybe something in the CCRM?
Got a couple of those too.

Keys are excellent condition.

 

[stephen newberg]

If the keys are good, yes, sounds like something in the safety relay area. Oh well. Those are zero fun to find, from what I have read. I have been fortunate and never had the problem. Best of luck, as I am out of useful suggestions. When you do find it, please let us know what it was, though.

pax, smn

 

[98SF19]

Maybe something in the CCRM?

I thought the Gen3's didn't have a CCRM.

 

[GEN 3 SHO FAN]

2 cents from a newby...

Not sure but these check up will not take long.

Check the wiring going to the brake pedal sensor. The wiring endure humidity there and is moving each time we touch brakes, making it very weak with time. (And sometime, we hit them with a feet.)

This sensor is there to make the computer to "see" if your applying brake during start up (no brake = no start). Don't remember which color is. There is 2 sensors, the other is for the cruise control.

One of my SLO had this trouble, long time ago. Can explain the no start but not the no fuel pump activity.

Other SLO, had a loosen master fuse. They are on the left side of the fuse box under hood behind a small black plastic cover (held by 2 10mm nuts). Over time corrosion can created there too. (And good idea to have a spare one when you inversed your battery...)

I will have to read again on PATS. IIRC, I rode similar behavior on it (even if it's normally close off the engine all after 10 sec.).

Keep us informed, we will try to save your RM.

 

[E1]

When you do find it, please let us know what it was, though.

pax, smn

Of Course. I could have gone through the V8SHO.com list, but figured it would be fun here and generate a little traffic on 'a good one' to keep interest.
If we crash here, I can still turn there. Either way I will get it and surely post replies here.

 

[E1]

OK - Tonight's results -

CCRM reinstated the fuel pump! and then it wouldn't crank anyhow.....

Sumbich - I think we have a multi-layered problem here.

I broke down. I confess. I broke out the old Dell Laptop Computer. You know - the one that still runs Windows XP?

With this secret reader of ancient technology in hand I fired up the old Ford 1997 Service CD.

Starter relay tested perfect.
2 Ignition related fuses in the under dash fuse panel tested fine.

Ignition switch tested fine.

There is just not much left.

I think I have a corroded terminal in a connector somewhere. I know mice like to camp out under our hoods when stored long term. Now I gotta find where those mice like to *** near a loom connector.

 

[sperold]

Do a starter test by jumping across the terminals on the starter directly. Your starter could be pooched entirely or on a dead spot on the armature.

Good news on the fuel pump, you are half way home.

 

[stephen newberg]

XP is old? But, but, this internet box I am on right now is running XP...

pax, smn

 

[E1]

Do a starter test by jumping across the terminals on the starter directly. Your starter could be pooched entirely or on a dead spot on the armature.

Good news on the fuel pump, you are half way home.

I tapped the starter with a hammer ages ago when this problem raised its head = no change in events.
I hit the starter HARDER with a hammer last night, to no avail.

Usually, I see the starters go after 150k. And then it is a slow, sick death. I have seen many of our starters going out, and the hammer trick would always get me one more start.

I'm pretty sure it's not the starter, but there are firsts for everything.
I'll jump the solenoid - the trigger wire with the pink. (Why did he know the wire color?...hmmmm...must have fooled with that one 'once or twice' before.)
;-)

 

[GEN 3 SHO FAN]

I must do my excuses, I was mistaken with sensors and master fuse.

I found this on V8SHO concerning fuel pump and no start symptoms : TSB 98-25-1
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/No Start Fuel Pump TSB 98-25-1.htm

On my RM, I had nothing to protect electrical wires on the original pump. The newer one had a plastic sheathing onto wire harness (it's a 98 or 99).

During no start condition, you must try some hits on the tank (but a lot less than HARDER).

I still think that can be the PATS (can makes no start conditions) : TSB 99-26-6
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/Passive Anti Theft Diag TSB 99-26-6.htm
Multiples notes on that TSB are interesting. (Also, PATS for 96-97 are differents from 98-99...)
Simple question, did you tryed all your keys ?

For our knowledge, what is going if a crankshaft sensor fail (no start up or no crank) ?
If it's no crank, crank position sensor can be in cause too. In front of the engine and with the plug pointing up, all water and dust can fall into.
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/IntermittentNoStartProblemSolved.htm
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/CamCrankPositionSensorPhotos.htm

Wiring between fuse box and starter maybe in cause too. But as your car is a real low mileage one, I would begin searching on the TSB side.