Porting and dimpling

[Bluezone]

I watch these two videos on Port flow. It gave me some interesting ideas to try out on the intake manifold and possibly the ports. I've included my observations in my reply to the second video.

"I think you're onto something there with what you're describing regarding the gathering of the dykem towards the centre cylinder head. But there's a secondary effect going on as well for what I can see. So, there's also a direction, vector change, and velocity change. The dimples are increasing the velocity of the air near the wall surface. So, the major airflow is closer to the surface of the portwall. The fallout, literally, is the heavier particles of the dykem maintaining their velocity vector in the changing direction of the airstream. So, the dykem is separating out of the airstream because of the directional change of the air. This is over a wider dimpled area. On the plus side, this high-flow area is contributing to increased overall portflow by reduceing velocity loss through this high flow area.
In the stock intake, airflow is farther away from the port wall. So it's performing a gentler turn into and through the port wall radius and valve seat aperture. This would be a great modification for direct injection but poor for port injection or carburetion. Obviously, you want the fuel to flow into the cylinder with the air.
The dimpled Port also demonstrated that the airflow was clinging to the port wall even around the radius headed into the valve.
While the non dimpled Port reveals the change in Port profile via the smaller dykem deposit, showing the gentler change of direction.
Low-flow, low velocity, turbulent areas should benefit from dimpling. Meaning this could help with directing airflow. So the backside of the valve guide and the tight radius into the the short side could see improved air distribution with dimpling.
Also keep in mind the Bernoulli effect. High Velocity through restriction equals low pressure. Pressure moves from high to low."

What does everyone else think?

 

[gamah]

Would this make a difference with DI?

 

[stripSHO]

It appears most of the mechanics you use to state your case are wrong, but I think you're still arriving at a good conclusion. I think it's been pretty well proven that dimpling only has a positive effect if the port design is garbage to begin with. And its benefits have nothing to do with the notion of reducing drag, improving coanda effect, or any other of the false fluid dynamic theories regarding the subject. Dimpling actually increases drag, but when used strategically it can act as a "porting bondo" to create high pressure areas that deflect and aerodynamically reshape the effective airstream into a more efficient path. In case of the video, dimpling just the bottom deflected some air upwards into more of a gooseneck path, which widens the turn radius and reduces some of the chaos that is going on in the pocket of this cheapo chinese cylinder head. He'd probably have seen even better numbers initially if he'd left the back wall alone.
It's far more cost effective to start with a good head instead blowing money on dremel time for this. To quote Headgames owner Dave Localio: "The only true advantage I see in dimple ports is if you're playing discus with the cylinder head and want to see how much farther you can throw it." But in cases where there's little to no aftermarket support then it could have benefits IF done correctly. But even then the juice is not likely to be worth the squeeze.

BTW I wouldn't invest any time analyzing patterns from a guy randomly spraying dye with no control for quantities or angles. Besides, dye just pools and pools and pools, then drips and runs everywhere. But fuel collects a small puddle and then reaches an equilibrium as it re-evaporates into the air. It's called port wall wetting, and every car does it. It's why carburetors have booster pumps and why ECMs have transient enrichment tables. I don't think there's really anything to be learned or gained from the video besides don't by flo-tek heads (pretty sure the same guy has a video stating this explicitly...)

 

[SM105K]

It appears most of the mechanics you use to state your case are wrong, but I think you're still arriving at a good conclusion. I think it's been pretty well proven that dimpling only has a positive effect if the port design is garbage to begin with. And its benefits have nothing to do with the notion of reducing drag, improving coanda effect, or any other of the false fluid dynamic theories regarding the subject. Dimpling actually increases drag, but when used strategically it can act as a "porting bondo" to create high pressure areas that deflect and aerodynamically reshape the effective airstream into a more efficient path. In case of the video, dimpling just the bottom deflected some air upwards into more of a gooseneck path, which widens the turn radius and reduces some of the chaos that is going on in the pocket of this cheapo chinese cylinder head. He'd probably have seen even better numbers initially if he'd left the back wall alone.
It's far more cost effective to start with a good head instead blowing money on dremel time for this. To quote Headgames owner Dave Localio: "The only true advantage I see in dimple ports is if you're playing discus with the cylinder head and want to see how much farther you can throw it." But in cases where there's little to no aftermarket support then it could have benefits IF done correctly. But even then the juice is not likely to be worth the squeeze.

BTW I wouldn't invest any time analyzing patterns from a guy randomly spraying dye with no control for quantities or angles. Besides, dye just pools and pools and pools, then drips and runs everywhere. But fuel collects a small puddle and then reaches an equilibrium as it re-evaporates into the air. It's called port wall wetting, and every car does it. It's why carburetors have booster pumps and why ECMs have transient enrichment tables. I don't think there's really anything to be learned or gained from the video besides don't by flo-tek heads (pretty sure the same guy has a video stating this explicitly...)

Dave Localio knows his shit. Big name in the big power 2J market.

 

[Bluezone]

Dave Localio knows his shit. Big name in the big power 2J market.

I would have to agree with you SM105K. "Dave Localio" knows his stuff.

 

[Bluezone]

It's not like we have a lot of choices in optional cylinder heads. As far as I know our only source is Ford. Has anyone checked to see if some versions of the front wheel drive 3.5 L EcoBoost heads flow better than others? Anyone? Bueller?
I'm pretty sure none of us can afford to make custom cylinder head castings. So that kind leaves us with bandaid solutions aka modifying existing casting. Not that the stock heads are all that bad.

 

[stripSHO]

It's not like we have a lot of choices in optional cylinder heads. As far as I know our only source is Ford. Has anyone checked to see if some versions of the front wheel drive 3.5 L EcoBoost heads flow better than others? Anyone? Bueller?
I'm pretty sure none of us can afford to make custom cylinder head castings. So that kind leaves us with bandaid solutions aka modifying existing casting. Not that the stock heads are all that bad.

I'm with you. Given that we don't have options I'm open to the idea of dimpling being able to provide a small benefit. But as with any build, everything has to work in harmony. High flowing heads aren't much good without big cams that we don't have either. And neither one of them amount to a hill of beans with stock form factor turbos hanging a noose around the whole operation.

 

[Bluezone]

Ya, to bad Kelford cam shafts won't work with our engine.

 

[SM105K]

I am shocked that therw isn't a larger aftermarket for heads and cams for the 3.5 EB. The engine has been around for 13 years now.....

 

[robert francis]

"Super Six Motorsports" has some 3.5 products.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

"Super Six Motorsports" has some 3.5 products.

They offer them, but they also offer zero input or specifications on them, and won't tell you how well they perform. We used to be dealers for SSM waaaay back in the day, and when we approached them about their 3.5L products, most are for the NA model or just transferred over from the Cyclone Mustang engine. They don't offer Ecoboost camshafts, and their head porting doesn't offer any testing criteria or feedback that can be used to make a sound decision. Even their head stud offering, which is unique, requires you to send them your head bolts and they will just match them up to the ARP catalog. They don't have a standard offering nor to they offer any specification.

That said, I do have a ported intake manifold that we ported for testing purposes, but things have been so busy we really haven't had a chance to test it, and without access to an AWD dyno it would be hard to justify any gains. Additionally, I still need to port match the phenolic spacer to test it for gains with and without the ported manifold, but without a dyno it's going to be hard to justify any gains with just datalogs.

We do have a local shop that we utilize for head porting, and it's been something we've toyed with doing but on a stock engine I really don't see there being any benefit as the turbos themselves are tapped out and once upgraded can outlast the factory internals and the cost isn't worth the gains to me unless you're planning to build the engine. Could it potential drop WGDC and help you extend the stock turbos out further, maybe touching 500hp on stock turbos? Maybe, but if you're spending $1500-2000 on heads, you might as well build the motor at that point.

I know @802SHO has ported pretty much everything on his engine, and I'm eager to see how it does once he gets the engine back together and ready to race, but it'll be hard to break down gains to individual components since Andrew has done so much at once.

 

[802SHO]

They offer them, but they also offer zero input or specifications on them, and won't tell you how well they perform. We used to be dealers for SSM waaaay back in the day, and when we approached them about their 3.5L products, most are for the NA model or just transferred over from the Cyclone Mustang engine. They don't offer Ecoboost camshafts, and their head porting doesn't offer any testing criteria or feedback that can be used to make a sound decision. Even their head stud offering, which is unique, requires you to send them your head bolts and they will just match them up to the ARP catalog. They don't have a standard offering nor to they offer any specification.

That said, I do have a ported intake manifold that we ported for testing purposes, but things have been so busy we really haven't had a chance to test it, and without access to an AWD dyno it would be hard to justify any gains. Additionally, I still need to port match the phenolic spacer to test it for gains with and without the ported manifold, but without a dyno it's going to be hard to justify any gains with just datalogs.

We do have a local shop that we utilize for head porting, and it's been something we've toyed with doing but on a stock engine I really don't see there being any benefit as the turbos themselves are tapped out and once upgraded can outlast the factory internals and the cost isn't worth the gains to me unless you're planning to build the engine. Could it potential drop WGDC and help you extend the stock turbos out further, maybe touching 500hp on stock turbos? Maybe, but if you're spending $1500-2000 on heads, you might as well build the motor at that point.

I know @802SHO has ported pretty much everything on his engine, and I'm eager to see how it does once he gets the engine back together and ready to race, but it'll be hard to break down gains to individual components since Andrew has done so much at once.

Yeah, it’s BBK TB, ported intake manifold with less runner length, CNC ported heads, ported 13+ exhaust manifolds and ported GearHead Gen3R turbos. I think the turbos are the bottleneck in that setup. I’m tired of hearing about cams. There aren’t any. By making my engine a more powerful N/A engine it’s by default going to be a more powerful boosted motor. It’s going to make a nice difference. Would it be even better with cams? Yeah but are there any? No, so idc about factoring in non existent parts. To think porting heads and everything is in vein without cams leaves me scratching my head.

For all you cam fan bois….might as well sell your SHO and move on if nothing is worth doing without cams.

I was going to get new wheels and tires….but without cams.

I’m going to add a HPFP but without cams….

Why get bigger turbos if you don’t have cams….

Might as well **** yourself since there aren’t cams! Hahahahahahahahaha! For ***** sake!

 

[Majestic]

I don't know if he would be interested, but Boport is the MAN in the 2.3 turbo world. He ports everything and produces cams for the old LIMA 2.3 Maybe one of you with big goals could reach out to him. https://www.bo-port.com/

 

[Bluezone]

They offer them, but they also offer zero input or specifications on them, and won't tell you how well they perform. We used to be dealers for SSM waaaay back in the day, and when we approached them about their 3.5L products, most are for the NA model or just transferred over from the Cyclone Mustang engine. They don't offer Ecoboost camshafts, and their head porting doesn't offer any testing criteria or feedback that can be used to make a sound decision. Even their head stud offering, which is unique, requires you to send them your head bolts and they will just match them up to the ARP catalog. They don't have a standard offering nor to they offer any specification.

That said, I do have a ported intake manifold that we ported for testing purposes, but things have been so busy we really haven't had a chance to test it, and without access to an AWD dyno it would be hard to justify any gains. Additionally, I still need to port match the phenolic spacer to test it for gains with and without the ported manifold, but without a dyno it's going to be hard to justify any gains with just datalogs.

We do have a local shop that we utilize for head porting, and it's been something we've toyed with doing but on a stock engine I really don't see there being any benefit as the turbos themselves are tapped out and once upgraded can outlast the factory internals and the cost isn't worth the gains to me unless you're planning to build the engine. Could it potential drop WGDC and help you extend the stock turbos out further, maybe touching 500hp on stock turbos? Maybe, but if you're spending $1500-2000 on heads, you might as well build the motor at that point.

I know @802SHO has ported pretty much everything on his engine, and I'm eager to see how it does once he gets the engine back together and ready to race, but it'll be hard to break down gains to individual components since Andrew has done so much at once.

Yeah, blindly hogging out the ports without a plan or testing repeatable results is a crap shoot. Increasing port volume can become problematic for low lift flow.
From what I understand, the most important gains in overall flow are at initial valve opening. Roughly, like fooling the engine into thinking it has a bigger cam. If you need an analogy.
Anyone know if the Ford GT CAMs are different?

EDIT: Foget that. looked up the price. $1714.21 for each cam!!!!!

 

[stripSHO]

Yeah, it’s BBK TB, ported intake manifold with less runner length, CNC ported heads, ported 13+ exhaust manifolds and ported GearHead Gen3R turbos. I think the turbos are the bottleneck in that setup. I’m tired of hearing about cams. There aren’t any. By making my engine a more powerful N/A engine it’s by default going to be a more powerful boosted motor. It’s going to make a nice difference. Would it be even better with cams? Yeah but are there any? No, so idc about factoring in non existent parts. To think porting heads and everything is in vein without cams leaves me scratching my head.

For all you cam fan bois….might as well sell your SHO and move on if nothing is worth doing without cams.

I was going to get new wheels and tires….but without cams.

I’m going to add a HPFP but without cams….

Why get bigger turbos if you don’t have cams….

Might as well **** yourself since there aren’t cams! Hahahahahahahahaha! For ***** sake!

And I'm tired of ignorant blowhards trying to dictate what we should and should not discuss. But sometimes in life we just have to deal.

 

[802SHO]

And I'm tired of ignorant blowhards trying to dictate what we should and should not discuss. But sometimes in life we just have to deal.

Ignorant blowhards. I couldn’t have said it any better myself. Nice assist.

 

[stripSHO]

I couldn’t have said it any better myself.

I'm not surprised

 

[802SHO]

I'm not surprised

Lol

 

[bpd1151]

I'll follow up with that I can't / won't put mine back together until cams become available.

All the work thus far apparently has been for naught.

 

[802SHO]

I'll follow up with that I can't / won't put mine back together until cams become available.

All the work thus far apparently has been for naught.

Yup! It’s been all for nothing my good sir, time to hang up our hats.