americanmotorsport.com
New Member
I need an EEC code...and I'll check if I can come up with something.
New member - tuner here for support
- Thread starter americanmotorsport.com
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stephen newberg
SHO Member
Alberto, a lot of people are asking about the T/C flip due to the aC and you are not answering. Are we to take this to mean you cannot address this problem?
Like Ian and others, I am certainly interested, but even with a 10 day money back thing, it would be useful to get something from you addressing the TC/AC question, and perhaps even something on a real gain as measured with a dyno before going any further, and both questions remain unanswered.
No offense intended, but at this point, and with it asked this many times, not answering is starting to seem like avoiding.
pax, smn
Like Ian and others, I am certainly interested, but even with a 10 day money back thing, it would be useful to get something from you addressing the TC/AC question, and perhaps even something on a real gain as measured with a dyno before going any further, and both questions remain unanswered.
No offense intended, but at this point, and with it asked this many times, not answering is starting to seem like avoiding.
pax, smn
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
The reason the TC slips on anf off when the AC clutch comes on is to minimize the "feel" of the AC clutch coming on. Yes, I can get rid of this and make the converter stay locked. I thought I had implied that in my answer when I said I could revise the TC lockup schedule. I apologize if this was not clear.
And for the record, Yes, we have worked on a few supercharged V8 Taurus SHO's.
And regarding power gains on the dyno, every car is different. You may see only a few HP on some, you may see 10 at the wheels on others, it will vary. You guys know this...but you will certainly get many benefits offthe chip, including the TC stuff amongst all of the other aspoects I listed.
And for the record, Yes, we have worked on a few supercharged V8 Taurus SHO's.
And regarding power gains on the dyno, every car is different. You may see only a few HP on some, you may see 10 at the wheels on others, it will vary. You guys know this...but you will certainly get many benefits offthe chip, including the TC stuff amongst all of the other aspoects I listed.
stephen newberg
SHO Member
Paul, when you had the t/c cycling removed from your original chip, as you mention, where there any other effects of this particular alteration? Alberto indicates the design intent is to minimize the "feel" of the AC clutch coming on. Does your modified version have a difference in the feel for the AC as it cycles in and out?
pax, smn
pax, smn
Bob Gervais
Wut?
We've had Apten, and now American MotorSport. I think the others may have been before my time there. Apten is still a supporter, although I have not heard from Brian in a while.
Another benefit to American MotorSport, I've gotten email responses the same day, often times within an hour of sending one.
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
I do not own a dyno, but rather use some local ones I have access to. I do this part time, but do dedicate a lot of attention and effort to my customers.
But I'd be happy to look at your car and chip it if you would like.
But I'd be happy to look at your car and chip it if you would like.
In numbers for a group buy, how many are you talking about. Personally, I would/could drive there to get it done but it is still a 7 hour drive for me. Then I would also want to head the other way to get welded at FPS since I missed the Kirk day in Tennesee before or after it was done. I just wish I knew a local welder with SHO skills.
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
I'd say 10 for GP. What setup do you have that you don't want to do mail-order?
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
That includes the SHO. You don't really need a dynotune for a near-stock car...it would not be worth the money you would have to spend on the dyno. You'd be fine with just a mail-order tune, but we can do whichever you wish.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
Al, its 100 percent impossible to tune a car VIA the mail. These people will put thier trust in you only to have what they have now or Seat OF the Pants feeling that you did something..
If you want backing from the Gen 3 crowd you need to OFFER up at no cost a chip that works. You need to proove what you can do. Ill drive down or Ill send you someone from your area.
Fact guys there is NO ONE that offers a MAIL order chip that works.. It must be tuned on the car, Which Al im sure can do if he worked for Jerry. But dont send off your money to ANYONE via the mail for a magic chip.
Ill show you dyno results from Every chip maker and programer except Brian at Apten (never dealt with) and Now AL. Every one will show you a lose. Even My FORD chip lost power from my Diablo chip but made the car better for driveability.
Like I said Offer up a few and Mike Fred Hurder and myself will come right down.
I can also at that time give you ALL the EEC-V codes you could want for the V8SHO. there are only about 20 of them.
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: SHODWN ]</small>
If you want backing from the Gen 3 crowd you need to OFFER up at no cost a chip that works. You need to proove what you can do. Ill drive down or Ill send you someone from your area.
Fact guys there is NO ONE that offers a MAIL order chip that works.. It must be tuned on the car, Which Al im sure can do if he worked for Jerry. But dont send off your money to ANYONE via the mail for a magic chip.
Ill show you dyno results from Every chip maker and programer except Brian at Apten (never dealt with) and Now AL. Every one will show you a lose. Even My FORD chip lost power from my Diablo chip but made the car better for driveability.
Like I said Offer up a few and Mike Fred Hurder and myself will come right down.
I can also at that time give you ALL the EEC-V codes you could want for the V8SHO. there are only about 20 of them.
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: SHODWN ]</small>
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
What you are saying is innacurate. You WILL get a good program from me via mail order. I make chips a little differently than everyone else. And like I said, I offer a 10-day money-back guarantee. If you are not happy,send it back if. All of my chips are custom for each order and I have enough data on various cars to know what to put in each program...
Granted, dynotuning is better for certain aplications, but for a stock car it is a waste, period. Even for the complex setups, I can get the 90-95% there in the first burn, via mail order.
I also did offer a chip at cost or a free reflash of the EEC to one of the moderators. I also gave one to Bob G of TCCA and he can vouch for the gains..
How much power ddid you "lose" with teh Fordchip? Did you do it on the same day? Were they back to back runs? Which run was made first, chip or no chip? Was the car heatsoaked on the chip run?
I have even tuned 500rwhp SC Cobra's and twin turbo MACH 1's via mail order, and the cars were 90-95% there already on my first burn. They scanned and sent me dynosheets and I dialed them in just about perfectly via the mail. Yes, you would benefit from a live dynotune for setups as these two mentioned above, but these people were too far adn did not want to drive to me, so we made due with what we had. They are happy.
What do you think would be so different about a stockish car that would MANDATE live dynotuning?
And it's Alberto, not Al.
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: americanmotorsport.com ]</small>
Granted, dynotuning is better for certain aplications, but for a stock car it is a waste, period. Even for the complex setups, I can get the 90-95% there in the first burn, via mail order.
I also did offer a chip at cost or a free reflash of the EEC to one of the moderators. I also gave one to Bob G of TCCA and he can vouch for the gains..
How much power ddid you "lose" with teh Fordchip? Did you do it on the same day? Were they back to back runs? Which run was made first, chip or no chip? Was the car heatsoaked on the chip run?
I have even tuned 500rwhp SC Cobra's and twin turbo MACH 1's via mail order, and the cars were 90-95% there already on my first burn. They scanned and sent me dynosheets and I dialed them in just about perfectly via the mail. Yes, you would benefit from a live dynotune for setups as these two mentioned above, but these people were too far adn did not want to drive to me, so we made due with what we had. They are happy.
What do you think would be so different about a stockish car that would MANDATE live dynotuning?
And it's Alberto, not Al.
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: americanmotorsport.com ]</small>
Ian Macoomb
SHO Member
I'm guessing experience.
I think you under estimate the complexity of the SHO motor. Kirk has spent tons of money from many different companies and none have delivered proven power and reliability.
Basically what Kirk is saying is put up or shut up. We've seen claims like your before.
Yamaha V6
SHO Enthusiast
Not to be a **** on someone else's threads, but my official position is not to make a major air/fuel adjustment component installation (chip, MAF, etc.) unless it's done on the dyno. It's just too dangerous.
We've seen the same 80mm MAF & chip (granted, on the V6's), with the same year, trans & LPM run correctly on one '95 MTX SHO, and run 18:1 on another '95 MTX SHO. My point's not to "prove" the power as much as it is to ensure the car's not going to go lean with any of these modifications. This is why I believe every chip should be at least a 2-step process:
1) Burn to the configuration
2) Dyno Test, report back the findings including a/f, and make the determination about any further adjustments that may be required or desired.
Without that second step, it's a crap shoot. I received in an LPM from the west coast which was programmed incorrectly (heavily modded 3.2L MTX w/ the bolt ons, and it was flashed for a stock X2J); mistakes can happen. Everyone here on the board likely knows about the other tuners, who've been doing the SHOs for years. I dyno test with those chips as well, for obvious reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Alberto or his programming ability, I'm just voicing a personal opinion that any component like this should be accompanied by a visit to the dyno, unless you've got a real air/fuel setup like Josh T does. Power numbers are a great byproduct of making sure there's not going to be a SHOBoom, or a worthless decrease in gas mileage.
We've seen the same 80mm MAF & chip (granted, on the V6's), with the same year, trans & LPM run correctly on one '95 MTX SHO, and run 18:1 on another '95 MTX SHO. My point's not to "prove" the power as much as it is to ensure the car's not going to go lean with any of these modifications. This is why I believe every chip should be at least a 2-step process:
1) Burn to the configuration
2) Dyno Test, report back the findings including a/f, and make the determination about any further adjustments that may be required or desired.
Without that second step, it's a crap shoot. I received in an LPM from the west coast which was programmed incorrectly (heavily modded 3.2L MTX w/ the bolt ons, and it was flashed for a stock X2J); mistakes can happen. Everyone here on the board likely knows about the other tuners, who've been doing the SHOs for years. I dyno test with those chips as well, for obvious reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Alberto or his programming ability, I'm just voicing a personal opinion that any component like this should be accompanied by a visit to the dyno, unless you've got a real air/fuel setup like Josh T does. Power numbers are a great byproduct of making sure there's not going to be a SHOBoom, or a worthless decrease in gas mileage.
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
UMMM how about no. I have done several of these, even via mail order. The EEC is the EEC, it has nothing to do with the "complexity of the motor." Number of cylinders, displacement, and firing order, etc. are just values within the EEC. If you knew more about tuning you would know this. If someone is "really good" at tuning say Mustang's but not SHO's, then it means they don't know what they are doing. For Mustangs, someone once got it "close enough" and they all use that with small changes for each car. I do get OEM driveability and have the ability to make changes most can't. Diablo and them have the ability to change like 60-80 parameters in the EEC, I can change all 3000. Even for an N/a stock car, I change like 300. Clearly that would make a difference.
As for changing MAF's, I have developed MAF transfer functions for the L MAF's and other MAF's based on avergaring from about two thousand cars that, like I said, will be within 10%. I also have the ability to generate MAF transfer functions from flowsheets provided by Pro-M, if you use a Pro-M. I always skew rich for the first burn to be safe. You can then send back dyno data and I can optimize. The EEC is a control systsem. It works the same on all Ford's, it has nothing to do with the "complexity of a motor," airflow is airflow.
Most "tooners" simply skew a/f and "guess" and try over a few times, which is why the car is never "right" unless it's on a dyno. Often times, the car will also "learn around" the tune becasue of the way they do it.
You have seen claims before, well, everyone makes claims, not everyone has ability. Liek I have said before, iI do things a little differently. If you want to try me, sure. If not, don't. You won't know what I can do until you try.
Also, if you have not changed MAF's, most of this isn't even an issue, is it? If you know what you are doing, and I do, you command the new a/f, you get it....the rest is in the tuning. It's ALL about WHO tunes the car.
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: americanmotorsport.com ]</small>
americanmotorsport.com
New Member
I agree it is best, for heavily modded cars. I can send you a chip and you can dyno, then send me back the feedback and I can tweak. But they way I do them, I always skew rich to err on the side of safety. Sometimes though, a correction isn't even needed. I have made many high-HP cars run right this way. I am never more than 10% off unless the car has issues, inadequate fuel system, etc.
EEC-IV's are a bit different if you change MAF's, and I can elaborate on this...
<small>[ February 17, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: americanmotorsport.com ]</small>
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