My SHO is "unalignable"?

[SHOtimer]

Tried to have the car aligned because I know it isn't right, my tires are wearing excessively fast on the inside. So, basically my front end looks like this / \. He said the toe was fine and that he could not fix / \ <- that problem. I commented about breaking the welds he said that would only give me 1 degree of adjustment and my SHO was 2 degrees out of adjustment and it wouldn't be worth it. Now, my entire front end is entirely original except for my tie rods, and you can tell when you ride in it, just about everything clunks. So, this spring I am going to go through and do every bushing, mount, ball joints, strut mounts, and springs and struts of course. Now, could all my OEM pieces be so worn out that they are causing this condition -> / \? Will they be able to align it once I have all the new parts installed? He said that it prolly came out of the factory like this -> / \. Which I think is a load of bs . So, is this guy for real or is he just another *** mechanic? Thanx,
Doug

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: SHOtimer ]</small>

 

[SHO_of_SD]

Its probibly from the age of the car, sagging spring at letting your car ride lower, camber goes more negative the lower it sits, I have rear GTP arms that helps the rear alignment on my SHO but still is -1 degree in the rear, I agree with the mechanic, I only got about a degree from moving the frt tower plates, possibly new srings would help the situation
Just my $0.02

 

[JIMSHO]

an aftermarket camber kit is sold that you take and cut slots and install cams were the strut caps bolt to your towers. they normaly give you more adjustment. if you do end up replacing the springs that will also bring your camber up. because as the springs settle over the year the tops of your tires tip in giving you negative camber. hope this info helps you out.

 

[Speedy_91_SHO]

Although it is not a case for our cars, but all of the new Z cars came out of the factory with the wrong camber specs. It is causing sever tire wear on every new Z. i guess they tried to fix it but are not sure they have....or so I heard.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Break the welds on the stock camber plate yourself (most shops won't do it) and then go to another shop for an alignment. Even if the best they can get it is -.5 to -1 deg. camber on both sides, it still beats -2 deg. and your tires will wear more slowly until you decide to shell out for new struts, springs, mounts, etc.

 

[SHOZ123]

You can break the welds fairly easy with an air chisel. Then get a rotary file, take the strut nuts off and jack up the car body. This will lift the body enough for you to use the rotary file. Make some cuts at a 45 degree angle to the fender back and out at the strut stud channels.

Put it all back together an ask your toe guy if he can do an alignment now.

 

[SHOtimer]

Thanx, for all the responses. So, this is basically a result of a lot of old parts, ie: worn out springs/mounts....So, if I don't break the welds and just go and replace everything so it is in proper working order I should no longer have this problem? Thanx, Doug

 

[haydenm315]

I thought -1 degree of camber was the specification from the factory for sho's. I always thought this improved cornering. When the car enters a turn, the weight shifts to the outside tires and the -1 degree of camber provides a better tire patch when the body rolls a bit. I think I remember SDpatt's sig saying something about -1 degree of camber all the way around. I'm probably wrong, and he'll come beating down my door again. nono

 

[RoadWarrior]

Prosuspension.com sells camber kits to remedy this situation.

RW

 

[RI-SHO]

Spec's on alignment per ALL DATA software/manuals for a SHO is Front -0.25 to -0.75 and Rear -0.75 to -1.50 non-adustable from the factory of course.

BTW its really going to be tough to get a TRUE alignment of a car with all worn out parts and just for the fact that to my knowledge every road in the US has a crown to it. So it will always pull unless your toe guy takes in mind the crown as well, as far as camber he should at least be able to get that up to par once you break the welds.

On RI-SHO I had a 2.5"/1.75" drop, broken welds, and elongaged strut slots, which got my camber to a best of -0.75 upfront, which I wasnt complaining much about, but in the rear it was visibily bad around -1.5-1.75. I still ended up getting 33K out of the 235/40/18 Pirelli's tires on my 18's before I was at the wear indicator.

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: RI-SHO ]</small>

 

[Shoaz]

It is not harmful to the car to break the strut tower welds. This is a normal thing to do on a car that is aging or that has been tweaked from an accident.

I'd recommend drilling out the spot welds rather than chiseling them, though. You'll wind up with a cleaner system. The shop that popped my welds use a chisel and I *really* wish that I'd known that they were going to do that or that they'd drilled them instead.

FWIW, my car is pretty adjustable (adjustable control arms, etc.), and I run camber settings of -1.75 in the rear, and -1.5 in the front. I have even tire wear all around, and I use the same settings and tires at the track. Each car behaves a bit differently, of course, so this is just offered as another data point.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

SHOtimer:
Thanx, for all the responses. So, this is basically a result of a lot of old parts, ie: worn out springs/mounts....So, if I don't break the welds and just go and replace everything so it is in proper working order I should no longer have this problem? Thanx, Doug

I don't think anyone said that. Chances are, your high neg. camber is due primarily to sagging springs. Replacing the struts, mounts, ball joints, bushings, etc. won't change the camber to any great degree, but it will sure help overall ride quality and enjoyment of the car. If you're going to wait 3-4 months to replace the springs, just break the welds and have it aligned. There is no negative effect of breaking the welds.

 

[SHOtimer]

SHOooo:

SHOtimer:
Thanx, for all the responses. So, this is basically a result of a lot of old parts, ie: worn out springs/mounts....So, if I don't break the welds and just go and replace everything so it is in proper working order I should no longer have this problem? Thanx, Doug

I don't think anyone said that. Chances are, your high neg. camber is due primarily to sagging springs. Replacing the struts, mounts, ball joints, bushings, etc. won't change the camber to any great degree, but it will sure help overall ride quality and enjoyment of the car. If you're going to wait 3-4 months to replace the springs, just break the welds and have it aligned. There is no negative effect of breaking the welds.

No, nobody said that, but I was trying to combine the different thoughts from people and bounce it back off you guys to see if it makes sense. When I go through and replace everything I will be replacing the springs also. So, I figured worn out parts + sagging springs is causing this problem so if I redo everything it should cure it. Yes, no?

I will be doing this in March or April, whenever my spring break is, because I want to wait and do everything at the same time. I will prolly only put 6-7k on it before then so I think that won't be too bad. Does my logic make sense in all that ^?

Thanx, Doug

<small>[ December 14, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: SHOtimer ]</small>

 

[shojuan]

Sure. We put 20,000 miles a year on the SHO with worn out suspension and way too much negative camber in the rear and a little bit too much in the front. Just had to buy a set of new tires every year. The inside edges of the tires would get badly cupped and the ride would get pretty crappy before the tires were all the way worn out. 6000-7000 miles until spring ain't too much although don't expect to be completely happy after you fix the suspension until you get a new set of tires to replace your current new set of tires.

Also those "Original" spot welds are doing you no favors. Save yourself hassles and plan to drill them out. Get the rotorbor tool (part number 85790 ) from Specialty Products for about $10 if you want to drill them quickly and neatly (I took forever doing mine using my dremel. It got the job done, just took a long time. Neat enough for me...perhaps not for you? shrug ) I think the Helms manual even mentions this tool under the section for alignment. Check it out. Planning on replacing all the suspension components and keeping the front camber non-adjustable and expecting the alignment to just fall back into good specs is a bad plan.

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: shojuan ]</small>

 

[SHOtimer]

Well, the tires I have on there right now only have about 3k on them. So, I don't think they are going to go to crap before I go in and replace all of the suspension components. Ok, I understanding what is being said that the strut brackets need to be drilled out to fix the neg. camber. But, (now this is just my logic) when it came out of the factory the camber was non-adjustable and the alignment was true (correct?..ok lets say yes). Now, If I was to restore all of those peices to new condition why wouldn't it also return to the camber that it should be at? I guess that is my root question. Why was it perfect when new, and even if I replace everything it won't go back to being like it was new (alignment wise).

Thanx, Doug

P.S. As you can tell I am very ignorant in this subject and I appreciate the patience and information.

 

[shojuan]

When the car was being built they aligned the car THEN did the spot welds. There are variations between parts. Your original parts are worn out and need replacement. Not to mention that your subframe isn't in the EXACT spot it was when the car was new. When new parts go on the alignment isn't going to go back to exactly where it was. You *might* get lucky and have the specs be ok. Beth got lucky and her camber is at -1.0 degrees on both sides with the welds in place. However, if you choose to not break those spot welds then you might as well plan on spending the money for labor to do a lot of things twice. There is a reason for the factory Helms manual specifying breaking the front spots welds when your car needs an alignment. You're trying to Mickey Mouse it by keeping the factory spot welds because of some desire to keep everything on your car "factory" original.

 

[Bizzy]

My 91 was really bad in the / \ (aka saggy a$s) department. Replaced the saggy springs, I did the struts also, and all was so close to the original facotry specs it amazed even Chuck. I'd honestly give that a whirl before you go breaking welds. Just my opinion folks.....I'm not breaking mine until I have no other choice.

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Bizzy ]</small>

 

[shojuan]

Bizzy:
My 91 was really bad in the / \ (aka saggy a$s) department. Replaced the saggy springs, I did the struts also, and all was so close to the original facotry specs it amazed even Chuck. I'd honestly give that a whirl before you go breaking welds. Just my opinion folks.....I'm not breaking mine until I have no other choice.

I gotta disagree with taking that approach unless those original spot welds have some significant personal meaning and give you lots of warm fuzzies. It's too risky if you want to be able to get it right the first time. If paying for labor twice isn't a problem or if it would be less painful than losing those intangible warm fuzzies fine.

Also Doug, nobody is going to be willing to balance the camber from side to side by adjusting the subframe. If you want to take your car up to Custom Alignment in Mountain View and pay the $200 entry fee for a top notch alignment then that's a different matter. EXCEPT that they're going to want to break the spot welds.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

SHOtimer:
Well, the tires I have on there right now only have about 3k on them. So, I don't think they are going to go to crap before I go in and replace all of the suspension components. Ok, I understanding what is being said that the strut brackets need to be drilled out to fix the neg. camber. But, (now this is just my logic) when it came out of the factory the camber was non-adjustable and the alignment was true (correct?..ok lets say yes). Now, If I was to restore all of those peices to new condition why wouldn't it also return to the camber that it should be at? I guess that is my root question. Why was it perfect when new, and even if I replace everything it won't go back to being like it was new (alignment wise).

Thanx, Doug

P.S. As you can tell I am very ignorant in this subject and I appreciate the patience and information.

Again, nobody said that by not replacing all of the original suspension parts (even though the springs are going to be the culprit) won't allow you to get back into perfect alignment without breaking the welds -- it may very well. BUT why not just break the welds and get your car into proper alignment NOW?

Understand that by driving as few as 2000-3000 miles with your camber that far out of whack, the wear to the tires will be so bad that when you do finally get the car into alignment it will probably pull hard in one direction or the other and you will be very unhappy with the handling and the $$$ you're going to have to spend on new tires after buying a new suspension.

I had a customer who bought Eibachs, Tokicos, and brand new tires, and he waited about 2000 miles before having it aligned after the install (Eibachs lower the car sufficiently to cause excessive neg. camber). When he finally did have it aligned, the car pulled so hard to the left, and got so squirrelly in the rain that he ended up having to spend another $300 for two new front tires.

From the sound of it, you don't exactly have $$$ to burn, so why intentionally ruin your tires by not taking the 10 mins to break the welds, and then ~$50 to have the car properly aligned??? shrug

 

[Bizzy]

shojuan:
I gotta disagree with taking that approach unless those original spot welds have some significant personal meaning and give you lots of warm fuzzies. It's too risky if you want to be able to get it right the first time.

If mine hadn't come out so dead on perfect I would feel differently. Perhaps my car is different from everybody elses, it has held the alignment with no issues since March of this year. My view is "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Come next alignment, I do them yearly if no big potholes are encountered, if it needs to be done then I'll do it. Nothing warm or fuzzy about it at all. Again, that's just my opinion and what I will do with my car....to each his own.