large SHO fuel injector/fuel system

[somedude_001]

I have been doing a lot of research on injectors recently for the SHO powered camaro. Some people I talk to say 100lb is enough and some prefer the extra head room of a 120lb unit. I was looking at the ID1000 or ID2000 but there is a massive size difference between the 2 and also a massive cost difference. Idle quality is not a major concern but cost is. Some of what I have been reading says that the injector dynamics units are great but are massively overpriced because their name is big right now. So I don't really know what to think. I am open to suggestions for different brands and any knowledge that I can gain for you guys.

My drivetrain setup.

engine 3.2 SHO engine, Low compression, +1mm valves, BBB, EH intake, ported heads, and LOTS of boost, possibly nitrous, E-85 fueling

trans, TH400, 5500 stall, stock 10 bolt camaro rear end (unknown condition and gears) possibly 3.42's

I talked with lonnies preformance and I am having him setup a twin 255 pump sending unit to drop in the factory tank. He then told me that I need to change the factory steel tank for a plastic LS1 tank from the newer camaro or the E85 will corrode the tank over time and send crap through the fuel system. He also offered 120lb injectors at a cost of 125 each. He was one of the guys that said 100lb units MIGHT be a bit small. He asked my power goals and I said 600-700whp. He did a quick calculation based on my powertrain and came up with something around 875~ crank HP. Personally I don't think the SHO block will hold that much power but that is the power I am building the fuel system for. I am going for the over build it the first time instead of build it 2 or 3 times like I did on my turbo SHO.

Back to the injector question. He asked what size injector it took and I said I think it is the same as the mustang, but then I looked on the ID website and their units have replaceable caps so post 12 in the other thread does not help in that situation.... There are so many different brand options I don't know what direction to go. Do the ID units come with harness adapters and or resistors to change impedance?

 

[Toolman]

E85 presents challenges as far as fuel delivery, I was not aware you were going that route.

Personally, I think my 80lbers will make 600+whp with no issue (and the block will hold it, np, imo). But E85, it takes how much more fuel mass for the equivalent power of gas?

 

[sho_sc]

For what it is worth, considering the drivetrain loss and Supercharger loss, my SHO is seeing around 600 cHP. Running gasoline and 48 psi of fuel pressure, I'm getting a max of 80% duty cycle on 65# injectors.

 

[Phoenix]

You will probably need a custom intake before you max out 80 pounders.

And if you do max these out , I think you will hold the world record of highest HP with a sho engine.

 

[somedude_001]

You will probably need a custom intake before you max out 80 pounders.

And if you do max these out , I think you will hold the world record of highest HP with a sho engine.

I will not need a custom intake to make the numbers I want to. I think just north of 30psi should do the trick.

E85 takes about 30% more fuel for a given amount of air VS gas. It has a very high resistance to detonation though, so you can run a bunch more timing and that generates more power. There is also a air cooling benefit to the ethanol that is more resistant to high intake temps. Initially I was planing pump gas and that is why I have 8.5:1 pistons. But it will be tuned for both because E85 is not available everywhere and it may be difficult to find depending on where I am racing. On paper it should still make brutal power on pump gas.

I only need to make 1 more hp than the next guy at the convention

 

[Phoenix]

May I ask why E85?

Could a snow water/meth injection do the same?

 

[shomethe$$$]

I asked this a few years back to SHONut, here's what he said

"I'm not aware of any drop-injectors for the SHO. We can modify nearly any injector to be drop in, and add SHO-specific seals, just the same way we do for our 48 lb/hr injectors.
Here are some that are *close* but still require us to re-work the nozzle end of the injector to fit the SHO head and head seals:

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html - 1000 cc/min (about 100 lb/hr)
It appears that we can make the ID1000-60-11 work with some custom seals.
It might require some minor mods to the injector, I would not know until I look at one."

So 100lb's are just enough with your setup should reach like 77% DC w/ E85, 59% on pump gas.

 

[Ishodu]

For what it is worth, considering the drivetrain loss and Supercharger loss, my SHO is seeing around 600 cHP. Running gasoline and 48 psi of fuel pressure, I'm getting a max of 80% duty cycle on 65# injectors.

Plus your turning a SC so your using more fuel to turn the SC. So a Turbo car would need less fuel to make the same power.

 

[92sho16]

Going by this website's calculator http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx , regular gasoline injectors for 700 crank hp 88lb injectors would be required. If E85 requires 30-40 % more fuel than you should be looking at 114.4 to 123.2lb injectors.

 

[Sho Amo]

SO dont use E85?

 

[yamahaSHO]

If you want big, safe power, E85 IS the way to go. As I'm sure you already read, it has very high octane, cools the charge, burns faster/cooler, and spools turbos VERY well.

ID1000's at stock base pressure would be pushing it, however, if you bump the base pressure a bit, you can get a lot more out of them. For your dual pump setup, you may want to look at a DW300 or an Aeromotive 340lph dual setup. The ID1000's will flow the same as ID2000's at double the pressure. ID is also very easy to tune and you should be able to get stock idle quality.


In short, big double pumper, big lines, and an adjustable FPR and the ID1000's should be just fine.

I've got ID1000's for my STi and chose them after a good bit of reading.

 

[shomethe$$$]

I agree with YamahaSHO, ID1000's.

I'm betting the guys selling you 100's modified to flow at 120. if not, get more specifics.

So Jason, you got the E85 conversion done yet, can you list what needs to be done. I'm sure its not just change the tank, tune and injectors etc. What about the cat, line material, pump gear material....etc.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I'm putting in everything next week (remember, this is for the STi... E85 in my SHO would most certainly shred the transmission). I do not have to change the tank or the stock lines. If I stuck with side-feed injectors, I would only need to change the pump and the injectors.

Because I wanted the ID injectors, I got the top-feed converstion setup which will require me to replace the fuel rails (pictured) and the fuel line from the firewall>injectors. The DW300 fuel pump is rated for E85 and I believe the Aeromotive is as well. I know plenty of people running E85 with the Walbro 255 as well.

I will be replacing the in-tank filter for something in the engine bay. I am unsure how the stock filter will do with E85.

 

[shomethe$$$]

What is a top-feed setup, aren't all fuel rail's top feed?

 

[yamahaSHO]

The SHO uses top-feed. 04-06 STi use side feed. Side-feed receive fuel from the rail to the side of the injector.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/681081-post37.html

 

[shomethe$$$]

So you can't go with SS braided line or any rubber line with E85? the intake gaskets are safe but the paper gaskets worry me.

 

[yamahaSHO]

SS braid can utilize rubber composited safe for E85. I will be using a nylon braided line as I don't like SS braid. The paper gaskets won't see any fuel flow, so what are you worried about?

 

[shomethe$$$]

degradation of the gasket, but i think thats only cork..so it should be ok.

 

[yamahaSHO]

How would fuel get to the gasket so far upstream?

 

[shomethe$$$]

Alcohol vapor I'm assuming. Probably why E85 intakes are a lot cleaner, no hydro-carbon build up.