Knock knock

[810sho]

Hey guys new to the forum here, and still learning about the platform still,

I have a 2013 Taurus sho pp
Livernois cai
Catless downpipes
Xdi35
Cr stage 3 turbos
Treadstone tr10c intercooler

Long story short, the engine is probably hit

There are 2 videos of it knocking

I am unsure, I believe it’s rod knock. Maybe a phaser took a s*** You tell me?

With the eb engines being 3500+ for a used engine typically I will just rebuild the engine for that much.

First question if a rod is bent (which I doubt but wanna cover all grounds) are these eagle rods the ones for this ecoboost engine? The ad says 3.5 ecoboost/ 3.7 duratec so I would assume yes

Eagle Ford 3.5L EcoBoost / Ford 3.7L V6 4340 H-Beam Conn - CRS6011E3D

Eagle's commitment to quality and service has resulted in customer loyalty and satisfaction. This, in turn, has fueled rapid growth over the years. Eagle added crankshafts to our lineup a few years later as well as expanding our offerings in connecting rods. Continuous design improvements and...

throtl.com

If not I can replace the rods with factory but with watching Jordan’s bend a rod I’m sure I’m not far off with the current mods especially when I add meth/ n20

Also I wanted someone to shed some light on a 3.7 swap into a Taurus, I understand it’s the same block so theoretically everything should bolt up to it and I could find one of those relatively cheap compared to the 3.5 is the big problem with that cylinder wall thickness? I’m sure I could source oil/ coolant lines to the turbos no problem I’m just unsure of the 3.7s durability under boost,

I see super six making adapter kits for the 3.7l turbo swap onto mustang 3.7s and was wonder what’s the difference between the mustangs 3.7 and others ?

If all else fails I will rebuild with factory parts until I decide to build a dedicated engine for this car

Thanks In advance for any insight/ speculation it is all welcome and appreciated !

 

[802SHO]

How long did you have that current mod list? Who tuned it? What was your commanded boost and spark at the time of the rod knock first happening? What’s your best 1/4 time with that setup? And why Eagle rods?

Only a few questions lol.

 

[810sho]

How long did you have that current mod list? Who tuned it? What was your commanded boost and spark at the time of the rod knock first happening? What’s your best 1/4 time with that setup? And why Eagle rods?

Only a few questions lol.

There is a little back story to this car I bought it at 120k got a unleaded tune, long story short at about 125k the turbos went out I was in the process of having ortiz tune it at the time the turbos went, I bought stage 3 turbos and a xdi 35 when the car was rebuilt Ortiz was the one who tuned it, the cr stage 3 turbos went out a at that time with about 2000 miles on them, I assume due to clogged oil lines, the fronts were a catastrophic failure the impeller imbedded itself into the housing the rears weren’t harmed to the ***** eye, just like the stock turbos. My e/t and mph was exactly the same with the bigger turbos 13.04 @109 2.00 60ft. Fast forward to now I had flushed the engine pulled the pan and checked for excessive metal in the oil pan/ pickup tube cleaned everything and re assembled the car runs fine but developed this knock after the first drive on gearhead tune, i had replaced the cps sensors and crank sensor so I was doing a crank relearn when I noticed it, it only happens between a certain rpm and runs fine otherwise.

I am unsure of what the commanded was by gearhead, the logged boost was 12psi and the spark advance v2 pid reads min -5.25, max 52.5 this is the first tune from gearhead (still learning this platform don’t crucify me lol)

And eagle rods I’m not sure just because I’ve heard they’re a reputable brand and hopefully stronger than the stock rods.

Thanks!

 

[802SHO]

What did Ortiz say about the turbos? Bad oil lines? You didn’t replace all the oil and coolant lines when replacing stock with CR stage 3 turbos? What part of the country are you from? Were the oil and coolant lines visibly in good condition and that’s why you didn’t replace. Is it really a bad oil line or is that a guess.

13 second 1/4 with CR stage 3 turbos? That sounds crazy what boost and spark was that tune? Do your tuners tell you what boost and spark your tune is or do they just say…here you go?

I know exactly what my next tune is commanding my car to do before I flash it and drive it. My tuner tells me what he is doing. Do they not tell you anything?

Is CR going to rebuild them for free or at a huge discounted price? 2000 miles is nothing for a turbo to have catastrophic failure that is nuts!

That knock noise is only at part throttle and drivability is good otherwise? Eagle is forged and stock is not so I’d assume they are much stronger than stock just never heard of them but I am a nobody.

 

[810sho]

What did Ortiz say about the turbos? Bad oil lines? You didn’t replace all the oil and coolant lines when replacing stock with CR stage 3 turbos? What part of the country are you from? Were the oil and coolant lines visibly in good condition and that’s why you didn’t replace. Is it really a bad oil line or is that a guess.

13 second 1/4 with CR stage 3 turbos? That sounds crazy what boost and spark was that tune? Do your tuners tell you what boost and spark your tune is or do they just say…here you go?

I know exactly what my next tune is commanding my car to do before I flash it and drive it. My tuner tells me what he is doing. Do they not tell you anything?

Is CR going to rebuild them for free or at a huge discounted price? 2000 miles is nothing for a turbo to have catastrophic failure that is nuts!

That knock noise is only at part throttle and drivability is good otherwise? Eagle is forged and stock is not so I’d assume they are much stronger than stock just never heard of them but I am a nobody.

The car wasn’t assembled by me before hand so I could not tell if the oil lines were clogged before and they werent replaced when the stg 3 turbos were put on the first time , they were rebuilt and sent back I installed them this time and replaced the oil lines, along with the returns, the coolant lines appear fine and flow fluid through them, Ortiz didn’t say anything about the turbos, the turbos were sent to cr and they said “possible debris lack of oiling or over speed”
And no ortiz did not say anything like that about the tune they said “fueling and boost look good for what we’re commanding” and that’s it.

Boost was 18psi and spark was 53.5, ortiz tells me nothing other than stated above, and I haven’t worked with gearhead long but his last email stated
“Tune file, datalog configuration file, and instructions for loading the configuration file are attached.

Please respond to this email with any questions or concerns, please make sure to leave the device serial number in the subject line”

I was doing my first log for gearhead when it started.

Cr did not rebuild the turbos unless I had payed full price, I bought them from Aaron and they wouldn’t warranty them they couldn’t determine specifically why they got destroyed.

The knock is only part throttle and on decel around 2000 rpm give or take 200 rpm

I can send you all my data logs I have everything. I tuned my ls gto and have a small idea of what’s going on, just not firmly Familiar with the tuning side of it I tune with hptuners.

The car seems to run fine otherwise I don’t know if it’s down on power because ive never ridden in a different sho but 13.04 is still very slow compared to others with the same mods with stock turbos, with upgraded turbos the car was no faster I assumed because of no other modifications beside xdi and the turbos, I assumed the iats were too high to push it any further so I just drove it and enjoyed it until it blew up again now the car has downpipes and a intercooler added but i ran into this issue so here I am unfortunately.

Timing chain and water pump was changed when the turbos were installed the first time also.

I am in Michigan, flint.

I wanted brad to tune the car but unfortunately haven’t heard from him :/


Hope these tuners start going in depth I would like to know what’s going on

 

[SM105K]

I wonder if you have impellor crap stuck to your valves. Happened on my supercharged mustang when the Powerdyne Unit completely exploded. I just hook the nitrous back up and hit it, and the sound slowly went away.

 

[Bluezone]

Hey guys new to the forum here, and still learning about the platform still,

I have a 2013 Taurus sho pp
Livernois cai
Catless downpipes
Xdi35
Cr stage 3 turbos
Treadstone tr10c intercooler

Long story short, the engine is probably hit

There are 2 videos of it knocking

I am unsure, I believe it’s rod knock. Maybe a phaser took a s*** You tell me?

With the eb engines being 3500+ for a used engine typically I will just rebuild the engine for that much.

First question if a rod is bent (which I doubt but wanna cover all grounds) are these eagle rods the ones for this ecoboost engine? The ad says 3.5 ecoboost/ 3.7 duratec so I would assume yes

Eagle Ford 3.5L EcoBoost / Ford 3.7L V6 4340 H-Beam Conn - CRS6011E3D

Eagle's commitment to quality and service has resulted in customer loyalty and satisfaction. This, in turn, has fueled rapid growth over the years. Eagle added crankshafts to our lineup a few years later as well as expanding our offerings in connecting rods. Continuous design improvements and...

throtl.com

If not I can replace the rods with factory but with watching Jordan’s bend a rod I’m sure I’m not far off with the current mods especially when I add meth/ n20

Also I wanted someone to shed some light on a 3.7 swap into a Taurus, I understand it’s the same block so theoretically everything should bolt up to it and I could find one of those relatively cheap compared to the 3.5 is the big problem with that cylinder wall thickness? I’m sure I could source oil/ coolant lines to the turbos no problem I’m just unsure of the 3.7s durability under boost,

I see super six making adapter kits for the 3.7l turbo swap onto mustang 3.7s and was wonder what’s the difference between the mustangs 3.7 and others ?

If all else fails I will rebuild with factory parts until I decide to build a dedicated engine for this car

Thanks In advance for any insight/ speculation it is all welcome and appreciated !

Ford tested the 3.7 for Turbo use. It did not end well. I think it was a problem with the connecting rods.
NA motors have different heads, ports and manifold bolt patterns variations.

 

[810sho]

Ford tested the 3.7 for Turbo use. It did not end well. I think it was a problem with the connecting rods.
NA motors have different heads, ports and manifold bolt patterns variations.

Well that’s a bummer reason I was curious was because some of the mustang guys are taking them to 600 hp mafia racing has 2 on YouTube I seen, and I thought all the 3.7 cyclone / duratec engines were the same in the Taurus they use the same short block from what I can see, only difference is the bore size so I would assume a 3.5 head would work on it, so it would essentially be a direct swap I would think they use the same rods as the 3.5 considered they are the same length, just seems to me it would be redundant to use a different rod, I could understand pistons due to it being a na engine, for how cheap they are it almost seems worth pioneering that challenge and giving it a shot

I understand the rwd 3.5 eb and 3.7na are different bell housings but I can’t imagine them being different otherwise sense they’re the same engine family, if they are different and the rods are the weak link rods aren’t terribly expensive for that engine, the ones I listed above are about the same price as stock rods so it might be worth, unless cylinder wall thickness is a problem, but I wouldn’t think they’re any different than the cylinder walls in the mustangs version. I might be the first to try it honestly for 1100 bucks for a used engine I could buy 3 before I caught up to the 3.5s price

Really seriously interested to know the difference if it’s a head swap due to intake manifolds being different I’d be up for the challenge

 

[810sho]

Well that’s a bummer reason I was curious was because some of the mustang guys are taking them to 600 hp mafia racing has 2 on YouTube I seen, and I thought all the 3.7 cyclone / duratec engines were the same they use the same short block so I would assume a 3.5 head would work on it, so it would essentially be a direct swap

http://fordedgeclub.ru/docs/cyclone-v6.pdf

Looks like the heads are might not be interchangeable, I emailed super six and will report my findings,

For anyone wondering.

Update: Come to find out there is a ivct version of the 3.7 that came in the mks and mkt and from what I can tell it’s is the same head as the gen 1 ecoboost (aluminum valve covers with one cam phaser solenoid) I can look on pro demand to chart out the harness and compare this to our cars to verify if the sensor positions are correct theoretically even if they aren’t it should be relatively easy to extend the harness or put the correct sensors in

 

[DadMobile]

As you pointed out the heads are very different. Unfortunately there is no easy solution for going above 600whp without swapping the entire drivetrain.

 

[810sho]

As you pointed out the heads are very different. Unfortunately there is no easy solution for going above 600whp without swapping the entire drivetrain.

I would like to get ahold of a short block for a 3.7 to see if the 3.5 eb heads bolt up honestly would the short block for the same platform be different? I would genuinely like to get ahold of one and try to build one just to say i did it because nobody has, just to find out if it would even hold up to it ,

 

[Ta2dResqr]

https://docslib.org/doc/240638/cyclone-3-5-l-ecoboost-3-5-duratech-and-3-7-l-ti-vct-v6-engine

Most of your questions are answered here. Including the fact that the heads are not interchangeable.

 

[Bluezone]

https://docslib.org/doc/240638/cyclone-3-5-l-ecoboost-3-5-duratech-and-3-7-l-ti-vct-v6-engine

Most of your questions are answered here. Including the fact that the heads are not interchangeable.

Yeah with a .100" difference in bore size, you definitely couldn't use the same head gaskets if you overboard the cylinders on the 3.5. Compression would be way high too. So custom pistons.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Yeah with a .100" difference in bore size, you definitely couldn't use the same head gaskets if you overboard the cylinders on the 3.5. Compression would be way high too. So custom pistons.

From the article: "The 3.5 and 3.7 do not use the same cylinder heads and the heads do not interchange. The Eco-Boost cylinder head is also different from the generic 3.5 and 3.7 cylinder heads with regards to direct injection and the exhaust ****** bolt patterns The combustion chamber is shaped differently and of course the presence of the hole for the fuel injector." "
The intake manifolds, heads and pistons are not interchangeable between naturally aspirated and EcoBoost applications. Driver side valve cover, fuel rails, high pressure direct injection fuel system, etc are also non-interchangeable."

Combine that with the fact that head gasket part numbers do not match (OE or aftermarket), head gasket specs don't match (including thickness), they do not physically appear the same (oval vs round cooling jackets. The fact that there are adapters to put 3.5 manifolds and turbos on a 3/7 instead of swapping top ends.

Using a 3.7 block with 3.5 heads would also mean the combustion chamber, head would overhang the cylinder bore making piston deck height and dome extremely important.

 

[Bluezone]

From the article: "The 3.5 and 3.7 do not use the same cylinder heads and the heads do not interchange. The Eco-Boost cylinder head is also different from the generic 3.5 and 3.7 cylinder heads with regards to direct injection and the exhaust ****** bolt patterns The combustion chamber is shaped differently and of course the presence of the hole for the fuel injector." "
The intake manifolds, heads and pistons are not interchangeable between naturally aspirated and EcoBoost applications. Driver side valve cover, fuel rails, high pressure direct injection fuel system, etc are also non-interchangeable."

Combine that with the fact that head gasket part numbers do not match (OE or aftermarket), head gasket specs don't match (including thickness), they do not physically appear the same (oval vs round cooling jackets. The fact that there are adapters to put 3.5 manifolds and turbos on a 3/7 instead of swapping top ends.

Using a 3.7 block with 3.5 heads would also mean the combustion chamber, head would overhang the cylinder bore making piston deck height and dome extremely important.

I realize. I was referring to over boring the 3.5 block to the same displacement of a 3.7. That way you could use the EcoBoost heads. That would be a lot of metal to take out of cylinder liners.

 

[810sho]

 

[810sho]

Super six’s article was referring to the ti-vct Version of the 3.7 , and not the ivct version,
Can we confirm that the engine I am referring to is this engine, because the guys over at super six didn’t even know the 3.7 with ivct and aluminum valve covers existed, and what would be the difference on this specific engine?



In retrospect I was also talking to cometic about a head gasket that is thicker to compensate for quench and compression ratio, they will make custom gaskets.

 

[810sho]

i appreciate y’all entertaining this idea with me!

 

[810sho]

I guess at this point I’ll have to accept that a head swap wouldn’t work without a specific head gasket sense that would be the only feasible way to get the 3.7 to work in the Taurus due to the direct injection and coolant passages, because we can assume that the 3.7 is similar to the situation with the non eb 3.5 and is completely different, which is unfortunate because I would definitely love to entertain the idea for ***** and giggles

 

[810sho]

I can’t find any information on what head gaskets all of the aftermarket cylinder support or any closed deck guys are using either, they have engines out there that are bored and stroked already no? Why wouldn’t it be feasible to get a head gasket with the correct coolant ports on it, the only ports that are different are the ones by cylinder and the oval instead of circle, they have identical coolant passages otherwise, and the head bolt locations are the same, can anyone speculate why this would not work still?
Eb

3.7