Ignition Trouble

[shoon]

Just picked up a new SHO thats in dire need of some work. I want to get the engine running and ensure the motor is good before I completely overhaul the top end.

I got tons of fuel, all the cylinders are flooding, and the car tries to start but just stumbles. I checked for spark and have intermittent spark. It sparks erratically, some cylinders spark and then nothing.

ruled out cam sensor and put some new motorcraft plugs in it, but still have same results. I'm thinking Ignition module (DIS) coilpack, or maybe crank sensor.

any thoughts?

 

[johndallara]

SHO start issues

sounds like you are on the right track.

common SHO problems are causing no spark are:

1. bad intake ground. should have wire from L rear of intake to firewall.
2. bad CPS.

don't think the cam sensor going bad would cause this problem. coil packs do not tend to go bad (easy to replace, but not likely much help).

I would also see if the sputtering problem is ameliorated by using the throttle. if you give gas, and problem improves, might have bad Idler air bypass valve (round cylinder on R side of intake). TPS can also go bad, don't know whether this would be a good explanation.

of course, run the codes. search the forum also -- lots of posts about this kind of problem.

best of luck,
JD

 

[shoon]

Thanks for the info.

Will double check the intake ground today, and see if I can rig up a noid light to check for CPS signal.

Also, if the CPS is good, would that not give me a tach reading on the gauge while I crank the engine? I'm mostly familiar with GM cars, not sure if the SHO is wired similarly.

There were codes but an ignorant tech trying to assist me cleared them without giving me a chance to write them down first, I remember glimpsing at them and the only relevant code was something to do with the fuel pump relay contacts being open.. but I checked fuel pressure while the engine was off, and primed the fuel pump by cycling the key on and the fuel pump operates within spec at 43 PSI, and turns on and off as it should.

Also, the engine stalled on the previous owner.. wouldn't start since. But I was able to get it to start once while messing with the gas pedal, and it ran flawlessly for about 2 mins before it bogged down and stalled, hasn't been able to restart since so I'am thinking (and hoping) its an intermittent problem.

I'll search the forums and see if I can find anything else that might help in the meantime, thanks for your help!

-Shaun

 

[St Louis SHO]

Agreeinw with John, here are a couple more things to think about.

Have you checked actual fuel pressure? Should be 35-40. How about the plug wires? I've seen wires broke down enough to make a no-start condition. Check spark at the coil itself, if intermittent there, I'd be sure to change the crank sensor.

James

 

[yzstud]

my guess would be the crank sensor

 

[shoon]

Did more research and was able to re-obtain the codes. Came up with 211 (PIP signal) and 542. Good advice regarding the CPS! installed a new one, and it fired right up. the bottom timing cover was full of coolant and splashed all over the place when I took it off from the leaking water pump.

Now I have to deal with the water pump as well as the timing belt and tensioner (all original parts with 192,000 km on them).

Haven't touched the 542 code yet.. one miracle at a time for now. Any tips on doing the water pump? I'm guessing it would be best to do the pump and timing belt at the same time so the belt is out of the way.

As far as top end goes, should I worry about valve seals? I will be tearing it down to do the 60k maintenance (which it is long overdue for).

Also one thing I'm wondering, when I do the rocker cover gasket and tube seals, do I need to put RTV on both sides of the tube seal ring? or just on the actual rocker cover? This car desperately needs tube seals... the spark plug wells are FULL of oil.

 

[itwonder]

D

Now I have to deal with the water pump as well as the timing belt and tensioner (all original parts with 192,000 km on them).
Any tips on doing the water pump? I'm guessing it would be best to do the pump and timing belt at the same time so the belt is out of the way.

As far as top end goes, should I worry about valve seals? I will be tearing it down to do the 60k maintenance (which it is long overdue for).

Also one thing I'm wondering, when I do the rocker cover gasket and tube seals,

The best bang for the buck is the Duralast WP with LLT warranty from Autozone for $150. It is identical to the OEM pump, and complete including a new housing. The only problem with it is the included crossover tube O-ring is too big and will leak, so buy the Felpro WP gasket kit, which includes those. Some people like the Cardone rebuilt WP for half the price, but the one I got leaked within 2K miles. It's such a big messy job, the price difference makes the new pump the obvious choice to me. Do not try to change the WP without removing the plastic timing covers. It is much easier to change the WP if you remove the timing belt. In fact, I removed the cam pulleys and backing plate to make it really easy to install the pump and crossover tube. Take that opportunity to clean up the backing plate, and put on a new timing belt. Pull out the crossover tube, there is an o-ring at each end to replace. Lubricate them with just a little antifreeze. Use a bit of RTV to hold the o-ring that goes between the block and WP in place while you install the pump. That is a common place for a leak. Pressure test before putting it all back together. Replace the cap with a new Motorcraft one (not Stant) while you are at it.

Your valve cover leaks are solved by installing the Felpro valve cover set, which includes new plug well seals. Use a dab of RTV in the corner of each camshaft cap when installing the gasket. See the top 60K guide in the maintenance section at www.shophoenixproject.com

 

[shoon]

Thanks!

Unfortunately I live in Canada so Autozone is not an option. That $150 pump would be awesome.. but after shipping, it probably isn't worth it.

I agree that a remanufactured pump is not an option. A new pump is the only way to go. Here in Canada the cheapest new pump is $160. The only other parts listings that I can find are for a reman'ed pumps, or $300+ for the housing and pump together.

projected / current expenses:

95 Taurus SHO = $150

Crank sensor = $60
water pump = $160
water pump gasket set = $5
timing belt= $55
timing belt tensioner= $60
spark plugs = free

I'm at $490 total (including cost I paid for the car) / $340 in parts.

my budget is $1000.. so I am doing pretty good so far. The car is up and running!

as for the code 542, I'm going to replace both upstream o2 sensors, as I'm sure those are original sensors as well.

These are things I plan on replacing, not sure if I left anything of importance out.. but im sure these are the main things:

-2x o2 sensors ~$110
-intake gasket set $33
-rocker gasket set $77
-fuel filter ~$20
-spark plug wires ~$150
-Thermostat & seals ~$25
-rad cap $5

so about $420 more to go.

Still trying to find just the shims for adjusting the valves on this car.. Are they only sold as a kit?

Also, these car's do not have PCV valves do they?

 

[Phoenix]

Most of the times it's cheaper to bring the parts from the US , even with shipping and exchange. I bought maybe 4k over the border cause it's cheaper ...alot.

FYI, reman water pumps are just as good and a fraction of the price.

Might wanna look at these sites before checking out.

http://www.rockauto.com/
http://www.rcmautomotive.com/

No PCVs . just a lame hose that serves as a PCV. As for the shims , they are no longer made , so either you contact SHOBILL , who rents a kit (with plenny of shims) with tools to do it properly , or you try to grab them on ebay or in junkyards.

 

[itwonder]

Thanks!

I agree that a remanufactured pump is not an option. A new pump is the only way to go. Here in Canada the cheapest new pump is $160.

Also, these car's do not have PCV valves do they?

Look for the "new" pump that comes with a pulley already on it. That one for sure is made in Japan by the company that made the OEM pumps, so it's a quality unit.

The "just as good" reman pumps have been a SHO forum popular recommendation for years...and that's the problem. Those cores are getting old, and there is no gaurantee you'll get a first run rebuild from Cardone. So while they may have been a great option five or ten years ago, I'm doubtful they are as great today. My experience with one is it leaked at the main seal after 2K miles. The WP is a big, messy job on the SHO, and the $ difference is not worth a crap shoot on a rebuilt unit IMHO. YMMV of course.

There is no PCV valve on the SHO. PCV maintenance involves assuring the two lines are clear, and cleaning the passages in the throttle body.

 

[Storm-Chaser]

The 542 code may be an artifact of the CPS failure, especially if it is a Continuous Memory code.

Clear the codes, drive the car for a few days and monitor. Typically, 542 codes triggered by oxygen sensors should also set oxygen sensor codes (eg. 172/173 | 176/177), which you didn't mention.


I would like to encourage you to get the Motorcraft thermostat and radiator caps. The Motorcraft thermostat will include the o'ring gasket, that you'll otherwise have to buy separately.


Check the SHONutPerformance website, who's not far from you there in Canada. Also, there's RCM automotive in New York, which would minimize shipping cost from the U.S. to Canada.

Thanks!

Unfortunately I live in Canada so Autozone is not an option. That $150 pump would be awesome.. but after shipping, it probably isn't worth it.

[deleted]

as for the code 542, I'm going to replace both upstream o2 sensors, as I'm sure those are original sensors as well.

These are things I plan on replacing, not sure if I left anything of importance out.. but im sure these are the main things:

-2x o2 sensors ~$110
-intake gasket set $33
-rocker gasket set $77
-fuel filter ~$20
-spark plug wires ~$150
-Thermostat & seals ~$25
-rad cap $5

so about $420 more to go.

Still trying to find just the shims for adjusting the valves on this car.. Are they only sold as a kit?

Also, these car's do not have PCV valves do they?