How does this clutch look? Pics inside...

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Mike93

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Make sure it's a revised TOB with a quill sleeve, or you'll be replacing the clutch again in short order.

Also, I doubt one missing dowel would cause any problems unless the PP wasn't flush against the flywheel.

Nevertheless, getting new pieces in there should definitely help.

Yes, the TOB is a revised unit with a quill sleeve. The current clutch in the car had a sleeve as well...fwiw.

I'm a bit leary about the dowel myself...time will tell I guess. When flywheels get resurfaced is there a way to check for balance and warpage???
 

Jarrod

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Just for reference.. the clutch pictured wasn't the original in that '89. Looking at pics from the replacement of my original '89 clutch, everything is totally different...
 

Mike93

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Just for reference.. the clutch pictured wasn't the original in that '89. Looking at pics from the replacement of my original '89 clutch, everything is totally different...

Correct...I compared it to mine and it is the 9.75" unit.
 

93rev2sev

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Mike, if your mystery vibration does not go away with a dowel, here is a list of symptoms and possible solutions...

If it's the dowell, you should be able to tell...if the vibration happens at a stop in neutral when you rev the engine...its probably the dowell. If the vibration is speed dependant, it's probably not the dowell.

Wiggle in the wheel under hard accel : Wheel bearings, motor mounts, tranny mount(engine is twisting in cradle)

Shake/vibration at any speed over 60-65 with freshly balanced wheels : subframe bushings, intermediate shaft, motor mounts(tranny mount: engine is twisting)

Oscillation in the wheel at all speeds(faster speed, faster oscillation), in OR out of gear: Tire out of round, Bad caliper, Balljoint
 

Mike93

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Mike, if your mystery vibration does not go away with a dowel, here is a list of symptoms and possible solutions...

If it's the dowell, you should be able to tell...if the vibration happens at a stop in neutral when you rev the engine...its probably the dowell. If the vibration is speed dependant, it's probably not the dowell.

Wiggle in the wheel under hard accel : Wheel bearings, motor mounts, tranny mount(engine is twisting in cradle)

Shake/vibration at any speed over 60-65 with freshly balanced wheels : subframe bushings, intermediate shaft, motor mounts(tranny mount: engine is twisting)

Oscillation in the wheel at all speeds(faster speed, faster oscillation), in OR out of gear: Tire out of round, Bad caliper, Balljoint

Good info. The vibration is most notable at idle...often time shaking the dashboard. It will also start off strong then calm down as the engine rpms settle a bit. A quick rev will come with a slight hesitation. Driving the car while accelarting through the gears, I can feel a slight vibration and hesitation of power, but the wheel remains steady. It just feels like it's sluggish. Also, on the highway the car will cruise 80mph no problem, with no steering wheel vibes. The most I feel comes through the accelerator pedal...and also through the clutch pedal.

All motor mounts have been reinforced. Aluminum subframe bushings. New tie rod ends and steering rack 20k ago. Tire's are 5k old. Pretty much everything else checks out well...
 
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platoribs

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That's such good information it deserves to be repeated...:thumb:

Mike, if your mystery vibration does not go away with a dowel, here is a list of symptoms and possible solutions...

If it's the dowell, you should be able to tell...if the vibration happens at a stop in neutral when you rev the engine...its probably the dowell. If the vibration is speed dependant, it's probably not the dowell.

Wiggle in the wheel under hard accel : Wheel bearings, motor mounts, tranny mount(engine is twisting in cradle)

Shake/vibration at any speed over 60-65 with freshly balanced wheels : subframe bushings, intermediate shaft, motor mounts(tranny mount: engine is twisting)

Oscillation in the wheel at all speeds(faster speed, faster oscillation), in OR out of gear: Tire out of round, Bad caliper, Balljoint
 

93rev2sev

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Good info. The vibration is most notable at idle...often time shaking the dashboard. It will also start off strong then calm down as the engine rpms settle a bit. A quick rev will come with a slight hesitation. Driving the car while accelarting through the gears, I can feel a slight vibration and hesitation of power, but the wheel remains steady. It just feels like it's sluggish. Also, on the highway the car will cruise 80mph no problem, with no steering wheel vibes. The most I feel comes through the accelerator pedal...and also through the clutch pedal.

All motor mounts have been reinforced. Aluminum subframe bushings. New tie rod ends and steering rack 20k ago. Tire's are 5k old. Pretty much everything else checks out well...

That info reinforces the dowell theory.

So, when there is no load on the engine it vibrates? How about:
heavy accel...Less vibration?
Coasting(with engine braking)...more vibration?
Coasting(in neutral-engine near idle speed)...same vibrations as idling at a stop?
Engine braking...less vibration?
Idle...more vibration...as stated.

When there is a load on the engine, vibrations are offset by higher cylinder pressures and higher rotating speeds and the mass of the car. Let me explain...as the engine increases in speed, the balanced part of the assembly has more influence over the imbalance. The pistons moving faster, the crank counterweights moving faster, the flywheel moving faster...all those items are large masses...as they move faster, the effects of the missing weight(where the dowell should be) are diminished. There are a bunch of reasons for this and I can't remember all of them but, I do know that there are harmonics involved. The missing weight imbalance is small but can be felt at low engine speeds...it's like a sound...at low frequencies(bass) you can FEEL the vibrations. As the frequency increases you can still hear the vibrations and the speaker is still moving a bunch of air, but the troughs and peaks of the sound wave are harder for us to make out...because of the mass of our eardrum(and our brains and nervs)...it just too darn heavy to move at the same speed as the soundwave at super high frequencies....like that; the mass of the rotating mass in the engine and the mass of the car, help to buffer the vibrations at higher engine speeds. (the crank will feel the vibrations but we wont...it's still bad on the engine)

This is why a WHEEL imbalance comes on at 60 and goes away some at 80 and will come back at some other frequency(wheel speed). the intensity AND frequency combine to determine if there is enough imbalance to start the chassis shaking.

I know that was hard to read...im at work and can't string more than 1 or 2 minutes of writing together...

quote: The most I feel comes through the accelerator pedal...and also through the clutch pedal

these are LIGHTWEIGHT things connected directly to engine...this is why you can feel it...no mass to buffer the vibes...is this a rod or cable shifter...if its a rod shifter you should feel it on the shifter **** too...not so much if it's a cable shifted trans.

edit: you have a 93...rod shifter...put an empty coke can on top of the shifter ****...can you hear and feel it through the can?
 
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Mike93

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That info reinforces the dowell theory.

So, when there is no load on the engine it vibrates? How about:
heavy accel...Less vibration? Yes, less vibration
Coasting(with engine braking)...more vibration?
Coasting(in neutral-engine near idle speed)...same vibrations as idling at a stop?
Engine braking...less vibration?
Idle...more vibration...as stated.

When there is a load on the engine, vibrations are offset by higher cylinder pressures and higher rotating speeds and the mass of the car. Let me explain...as the engine increases in speed, the balanced part of the assembly has more influence over the imbalance. The pistons moving faster, the crank counterweights moving faster, the flywheel moving faster...all those items are large masses...as they move faster, the effects of the missing weight(where the dowell should be) are diminished. There are a bunch of reasons for this and I can't remember all of them but, I do know that there are harmonics involved. The missing weight imbalance is small but can be felt at low engine speeds...it's like a sound...at low frequencies(bass) you can FEEL the vibrations. As the frequency increases you can still hear the vibrations and the speaker is still moving a bunch of air, but the troughs and peaks of the sound wave are harder for us to make out...because of the mass of our eardrum(and our brains and nervs)...it just too darn heavy to move at the same speed as the soundwave at super high frequencies....like that; the mass of the rotating mass in the engine and the mass of the car, help to buffer the vibrations at higher engine speeds. (the crank will feel the vibrations but we wont...it's still bad on the engine)

This is why a WHEEL imbalance comes on at 60 and goes away some at 80 and will come back at some other frequency(wheel speed). the intensity AND frequency combine to determine if there is enough imbalance to start the chassis shaking.

I know that was hard to read...im at work and can't string more than 1 or 2 minutes of writing together...

quote: The most I feel comes through the accelerator pedal...and also through the clutch pedal

these are LIGHTWEIGHT things connected directly to engine...this is why you can feel it...no mass to buffer the vibes...is this a rod or cable shifter...if its a rod shifter you should feel it on the shifter **** too...not so much if it's a cable shifted trans.

edit: you have a 93...rod shifter...put an empty coke can on top of the shifter ****...can you hear and feel it through the can?

heavy accel...Less vibration? Yes, less vibration
Coasting(with engine braking)...more vibration? Can't remember...
Coasting(in neutral-engine near idle speed)...same vibrations as idling at a stop? Vibrations there...but not as noticable due to vibrations/noises from the car moving.
Engine braking...less vibration? Can't remember...
Idle...more vibration...as stated. Yes...

Having a load on the engine to diminish the vibration from a lack of dowel makes sense...I too am at work and have a meeting to get to but all you have mentioned makes sense to the symptoms my car has. The shifter has a nice vibe in it too as I drive...put a glass of water on there and she'll surely spill...gotta run, I'll check back shortly:)
 

Shoaz

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I'm a bit leary about the dowel myself...time will tell I guess. When flywheels get resurfaced is there a way to check for balance and warpage???

Just make sure that the flywheel gets "Blanchard ground". That'll get you the flattest flywheel possible, which is what you want.
 

drivinhard

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While not a beacon of hope, that clutch doesn't look THAT bad. That's pretty common for any used SHO clutch. The fingers wear (with any TOB), they get uneven once the place is unbolted, etc. The quill and TOB should be replaced, and while I wouldn't recommend with an enthusiastic 2 thumbs up using it, but I've seen a lot worse (and used worse in a pinch).

If the disc has less than .280" thickness, I'd toss it. That's pretty normal usage heat checking on the flywheel.

Use a new one if you can, but in 10k if you were to look at it, you'd be looking at the same thing.
 

93rev2sev

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While not a beacon of hope, that clutch doesn't look THAT bad. That's pretty common for any used SHO clutch. The fingers wear (with any TOB), they get uneven once the place is unbolted, etc. The quill and TOB should be replaced, and while I wouldn't recommend with an enthusiastic 2 thumbs up using it, but I've seen a lot worse (and used worse in a pinch).

If the disc has less than .280" thickness, I'd toss it. That's pretty normal usage heat checking on the flywheel.

Use a new one if you can, but in 10k if you were to look at it, you'd be looking at the same thing.

Well put...If you are in a pinch that clutch will probably work...just start saving for a good one.
 

Mike93

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UPDATE:

For a clutch Howdy Doody hooked me up with a brand new stock piece, along with a new TOB. I'm stoked to get this thing back together...I really hope that dowel was the cause of this madness.


^^^I picked up a new clutch;)
 

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