I finally had the right conditions this past weekend and some highway time to do some testing of my PWR #2506062 liquid to air intercooler. On Sunday with the car warmed up at highway speeds with outside ambient temperatures around 94 - 95 degrees the intake temperature sensor just in front of the EGR mounting would read 150 to 159 until I stepped on the throttle, the temperatures would rapidly fall to 95 to 100 degrees and would continue to drop but I was quickly passing through triple digits in an area that State Police tend to frequent. After several miles of highway I returned to city traffic and watched the same results although more impressive as the heatsoak raised temps in the intake to above 200 (limit of my dash mounted thermometer). WOT would drop me back down to 110 within a second even with 10# readings on the boost gauge. I never did get down to ambient temps but mind you the engine oil lubricated heat absorbing aluminum Vortech supercharger is also doing it's best to keep the intake temperatures up. All in all compared to what I was trying to accomplish with an air to air unit I would have to say the liquid unit was not disappointing. The air to air exchanger just wasn't getting enough air in the GEN 3 grill to be effective not to mention the limited space for tubing was forcing the squeezing to narrow spaces. I also was looking to shorten my lag-time involved with pressurizing that entire volume before the boost would be effective. Most importantly though is I installed Dougs 2 degree advancing SCT programming and never heard a ping. Next test will be on the Dyno when I get my coil issue resolved.
HighTemp Intercooler testing
- Thread starter ArkanSHO
- Start date
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Mike Kopstain
New Member
Do you have scanning software that can tell you if you're getting knock? If you're not getting knock on that setup rather than advancing timing I would drop a pulley size.
Good to know it working.
Good to know it working.
AutoSHO
No SHO = Mo $$$
Amazing! Charge Cooling does work! Even on a car as magical as a SHO!
/sarcasm.
Sounds like a really nice setup. How big is the heat exchanger you're using to cool the water? Where did you mount it at?
/sarcasm.
Sounds like a really nice setup. How big is the heat exchanger you're using to cool the water? Where did you mount it at?
Still think the timing is to ******** on mine ot make real good power. Changing the pulley will require me doing some radical design pulley since I do not have room at the bottom where the jackshaft pulley for a 10 rib number. I saw some from a machine shop that puts a cross-slot in the groove to offer more slip resistance. Trust me, at 10 pounds it as all that 8-rib can do to not slip, and usually does if I have a few thousand miles on it.Mike Kopstain said:
SASHO91
Zoom Zoom
this is just a suggestion...
have you thought of using Cryo2? it is an intake mounted, cooling "bulb".
he is the link if your intrested.... i know you allready have a means of cooling the air, but what the ****... i figured i give it a shot.... could free up some more ponies too... as well as drop air temps down...
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4
i have heard mixed results from this... oh well... worth a shot...
have you thought of using Cryo2? it is an intake mounted, cooling "bulb".
he is the link if your intrested.... i know you allready have a means of cooling the air, but what the ****... i figured i give it a shot.... could free up some more ponies too... as well as drop air temps down...
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4
i have heard mixed results from this... oh well... worth a shot...
Mike Kopstain
New Member
No, the timing is ******** to avoid knock. If you didn't have knock on your previous setup you were fine. Now that you're intercooled you should be able to add some timing back into the mix to get some more power. I still think more boost is better than more timing. When the motor experiences a failure due to excessive timing it's usually referred to as "catostrophic". 
Perhpaps it's time for a more efficient head.
Perhpaps it's time for a more efficient head.
Mike Kopstain
New Member
lol... It still amazes me that SHO people think their car is unique to everything else out there in regards to forced induction...AutoSHO said:
Not a dig at Carter either; it's the community in general. SHO Shop programmed a lot of brains wrong.
ghostrider
SHO Member
Charge cooling is to forced induction as sliced bread is to the world. When you start pushing the envelope with psi, it only makes sense to try and cool that charge.
Mike Kopstain
New Member
Rob, are you trying to tell me that a 3.6 stroker motor with a welded crank running 18lbs of non-intercooled boost with 36 degrees of timing advance is a bad idea?! Crap!
ghostrider
SHO Member
Let me think about that for a second Mikey.......
YES!!! That would certainly be bad. What was the guys name who had that setup? Pretish something? I remember that his license plate said sychosho. You know how quickly he blew up his motor?
YES!!! That would certainly be bad. What was the guys name who had that setup? Pretish something? I remember that his license plate said sychosho. You know how quickly he blew up his motor?
Actually I understand the concept quite well. My point is that the timing is still ******** to much since I have the intake charge cooled down. One of the programs that Doug sent me has a souple of advance settings. I have bumped them in a couple of times and it certainly performs better with each degree I advance. Besides it takes me a lot less time to advance the timing then change a pulley and besides the amount of damage that could be done from overboosting.Mike Kopstain said:No, the timing is ******** to avoid knock. If you didn't have knock on your previous setup you were fine. Now that you're intercooled you should be able to add some timing back into the mix to get some more power. I still think more boost is better than more timing. When the motor experiences a failure due to excessive timing it's usually referred to as "catostrophic".
And besides, my head has been "bored" and "stroked" for more then a year now and hasn't helped that much.
Mike Kopstain
New Member
Carter, I apologize if I sounded like I was being condescending. It wasn't my intent. Understand that either boost or timing is going to increase cylinder pressure and timing is going to be the one that's going to blow the motor up all things being equal. I don't beleive in overboosting... The whole premise of boosting is to make power. If you're running what you're running with no knock, you're not overboosting.
You may have (should have) noticed that your boost numbers have gone down since the intercooler install, that is assuming this setup is more efficient than the last. If this is the case you're now making the same power with less boost. This reasoning behind this is twofold:
- The intercooler presents a restriction in the system
- The air is more dense after being cooled allowing you to place the same amount of oxygen in the cylinder with a smaller effective boost number. When I get to this point I add more boost!
I can shut off my intercooler pump and my boost numbers will jump 4lbs. Dyno testing shows that I actually make more power (~11hp) with 4lbs less boost with the air being cooled. So then I drop a pulley to get my boost number up to where I know the car can run in safely and I'm now making even more power.
Go for it it. I want to see a damned 12 second slip out of that car this year sir!
Again, Please don't think I'm being condescending. I have a way of coming off that way sometimes and it's not my intent.
The whole premise of boosting is to make power. If you're running what you're running with no knock, you're not overboosting.You may have (should have) noticed that your boost numbers have gone down since the intercooler install, that is assuming this setup is more efficient than the last. If this is the case you're now making the same power with less boost. This reasoning behind this is twofold:
- The intercooler presents a restriction in the system
- The air is more dense after being cooled allowing you to place the same amount of oxygen in the cylinder with a smaller effective boost number. When I get to this point I add more boost!
I can shut off my intercooler pump and my boost numbers will jump 4lbs. Dyno testing shows that I actually make more power (~11hp) with 4lbs less boost with the air being cooled. So then I drop a pulley to get my boost number up to where I know the car can run in safely and I'm now making even more power.
Go for it it. I want to see a damned 12 second slip out of that car this year sir!
Again, Please don't think I'm being condescending. I have a way of coming off that way sometimes and it's not my intent.
Mike Kopstain
New Member
Another thought and I know Doug can pull it off...
Have him set you up a program that will change timing for IAT values. You can then replace your IAT sensor with a potentiometer that will allow you to manipulate the IAT temperature the PCM sees. For instance, on the 3800 PCMs we set it up as follows:
0 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 6 degrees)
10 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 4 degrees)
20 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 2 degrees)
30 Degrees Celcius (base timing)
40 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 2 degrees)
50 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 4 degrees)
60 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 6 degrees)
This allows me to sit in my car and change timing on the fly. Assuming you have a provision to detect knock, you can now change timing for fuel, weather, etc, all on the fly.
Those of you with TwEECers can also do this. Simply change your IAT Vs Timing table to reflect the changes you want. On a supercharged car I would rather have full control over my timing anyhow. I don't want the PCM adding more timing because it's cold out.
What kind of WOT timing advance does Doug have setup on your chip Carter?
Have him set you up a program that will change timing for IAT values. You can then replace your IAT sensor with a potentiometer that will allow you to manipulate the IAT temperature the PCM sees. For instance, on the 3800 PCMs we set it up as follows:
0 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 6 degrees)
10 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 4 degrees)
20 Degrees Celcius (base timing minus 2 degrees)
30 Degrees Celcius (base timing)
40 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 2 degrees)
50 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 4 degrees)
60 Degrees Celcius (base timing plus 6 degrees)
This allows me to sit in my car and change timing on the fly. Assuming you have a provision to detect knock, you can now change timing for fuel, weather, etc, all on the fly.
Those of you with TwEECers can also do this. Simply change your IAT Vs Timing table to reflect the changes you want. On a supercharged car I would rather have full control over my timing anyhow. I don't want the PCM adding more timing because it's cold out.
What kind of WOT timing advance does Doug have setup on your chip Carter?
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