Head Games...

[NovaSS]

Forced induction is not anything special when applied to porting heads, what works in N/A has roughly the same effect in forced induction, Its like putting an engine in a box and pressurising it. The engine sees the elevated pressure on both sides, intake AND exhaust.

What tends to happen is the boost (in power) tends to cover up mistakes in engine design and preporation. ( loss of torque due to over sized ports and plenums)

You can take an old flat head and stuff air and fuel into and get a few more horses but the same amount of boost in a modern engine desing will yeild better results.

 

[illSHOyou]

I didn't respond to you because I said my piece....why clutter up the board with sensless arguing when all you're gonna do is **** and moan about how no one thinks your ideas work?


I'll keep quiet from here on out, since apparently your broke ass shadetree mechanics is gonna work SO much better than highly trained, educated and paid engineers from Japan.


In the meantime, SHO parts are getting rare, so some of us would appreciate you stop cutting up perfectly good parts because your mental butt dyno says it MIGHT work.

Good, now thats the response I was expecting to hear. So if you don't mind peacefully leave me alone and keep your opinion to yourself. I really don't mind spending time on the board, but I do mind when somebody sits on their butt and does nothing but make comments about actions that I take. I don't remember the last time your where trying new inovations? So, who is the follwer here? I AM NOT

Your not adding to the discussion because you have lack of information to back up your claims, either theory or evidence.

While you may be upset I am cutting up a head. You don't seem to understand that I am practicing. What I learn from practicing will be applied to the real heads that will be put on my engine. Makes sense to me...

IF, you would also notice I am not deviating away from the engineering spirits of the yamaha engine.

Once again, this boiles back down to the "YOU DONT KNOW MY BUILD"

Knife edging the communication point in the head can be rather difficult. I rather delete the head communication and move that communication to the snakes where I can work on that communication point directly. Sense the car will have twin turbos, lag is really not a issue, nor is the loss of low end tq that "YOU" believe I will be lossing. Instead I think you might find the opposite to be true.

So, in the end if you want to continue we can. I wont back down, and frankly I think you will upset any repuatation you may have on this forum...

 

[SuperHO]

There's a good reason I don't try new innovations....lack of tools, know how and time. I have, from time to time, brought some interesting ideas that have fallen by the wayside, and I don't have a problem with that.


Now...from re-reading my post two or three times, I believe I AM backing up my addition to the discussion based on theory of what I've read and been told works, especially with these cars, which i've been turning wrenches and theorizing on since 2002.

As for the head, I was just stepping on your nuts. I can plainly see from the pictures that the head is crap, thanks to all the rust and stuff on the buckets. And if you honestly think I'm getting buttsore over you making a large pile of aluminum shavings, you haven't read enough of my previous posts.


FWIW, you mentioned earlier the Honda S2000 Cylinder head....you're right...there isn't a divider anywhere...but there also isn't a dual stage intake manifold consisting of long and short runners with vaccuum operated secondaries. And if you're curious on how well those secondaries actually work, first unplug em and drive without em...you'll notice a HUGE low end torque loss until about 3800rpm. Next thing you can do is wire em shut, at which point, it'll take about 2 cups of coffee worth of time to hit the rev limiter. They're there for a reason, and the length has been fiddled with by people with a shit-ton more knowledge than I have. I guess you could say I feel it's a case of leaving well enough alone.


NOW...with that being said, if your "build" consists of rebuilding the intake to your own specifications instead of using a butchered version of the existing manifold, then I'd love to see/hear about your plans and see what you've got in store. If all you're doing is whacking apart a stock intake, thinking you can just open up ALL the airways in vague hopes of cramming as much air as humanly possible in there, well, you're pounding your head into a brick wall. Just remember that no matter what you do, there's still only so much air that'll fit in the combustion chamber. It's already been proven many times before that the SHO head is certainly not a restriction, and there's absolutely no problem getting air into the cylinder to be squished by the piston, especially with forced induction.


I applaud your engineering work. Yours is some of the best garage fabrication skills I've seen. The only problem is, what you're trying to do is merely a waste of time and resources.

 

[illSHOyou]

There's a good reason I don't try new innovations....lack of tools, know how and time. I have, from time to time, brought some interesting ideas that have fallen by the wayside, and I don't have a problem with that.


Now...from re-reading my post two or three times, I believe I AM backing up my addition to the discussion based on theory of what I've read and been told works, especially with these cars, which i've been turning wrenches and theorizing on since 2002.

As for the head, I was just stepping on your nuts. I can plainly see from the pictures that the head is crap, thanks to all the rust and stuff on the buckets. And if you honestly think I'm getting buttsore over you making a large pile of aluminum shavings, you haven't read enough of my previous posts.


FWIW, you mentioned earlier the Honda S2000 Cylinder head....you're right...there isn't a divider anywhere...but there also isn't a dual stage intake manifold consisting of long and short runners with vaccuum operated secondaries. And if you're curious on how well those secondaries actually work, first unplug em and drive without em...you'll notice a HUGE low end torque loss until about 3800rpm. Next thing you can do is wire em shut, at which point, it'll take about 2 cups of coffee worth of time to hit the rev limiter. They're there for a reason, and the length has been fiddled with by people with a shit-ton more knowledge than I have. I guess you could say I feel it's a case of leaving well enough alone.


NOW...with that being said, if your "build" consists of rebuilding the intake to your own specifications instead of using a butchered version of the existing manifold, then I'd love to see/hear about your plans and see what you've got in store. If all you're doing is whacking apart a stock intake, thinking you can just open up ALL the airways in vague hopes of cramming as much air as humanly possible in there, well, you're pounding your head into a brick wall. Just remember that no matter what you do, there's still only so much air that'll fit in the combustion chamber. It's already been proven many times before that the SHO head is certainly not a restriction, and there's absolutely no problem getting air into the cylinder to be squished by the piston, especially with forced induction.


I applaud your engineering work. Yours is some of the best garage fabrication skills I've seen. The only problem is, what you're trying to do is merely a waste of time and resources.

Look we both have been dabbling in SHO's for about the same time. Just because I recently went very active doesn't mean I am a newb.

I understand the function of the runners very well, and also understand that I can change the function of the runners to suit my purpose.

I tried to get flow bench testing and still planing on flow bench testing. However, I have been turned down because I can't fill the porting shops piggy bank. I never expected to be turned down and was quite shocked, but I figured sh%t is every shop going to be like that?

so anyway...I will figure something out.

 

[SuperHO]

Might wanna try a different shop.


Thing is, I'm not arguing your work...i'm arguing the theory, and here's why:


No matter how much air the intake/runners/heads flow, there's two things holding the process up....first off, how much air actually gets into said intake and second, where that air ends up. Now, assuming you're going to stick with the single throttle body setup (which I know you're not neccessarily going to do), there's only so much air that'll flow past that blade, even if you, for some radical reason, go with an accufab 90mm setup as seen on a certain twin turbo Ford GT I've seen mucking about the internet. The other thing that's a limiting factor is combustion chamber volume. There's only so much air that'll squeeze itself between piston and valves before metal gets perforated. And it's been my experience through reading and research that the SHO heads and intake flow more than enough air to make that happen.

On top of all that, all that exploded, expanding air's gotta go somewhere, which means you should be looking at enlargening the exhaust ports/headers/exhaust, which I'm assuming your were already planning on, since you've pretty much opened the intake side of things about as far as they could possibly go.

In a nutshell, I'm trying to say that you can only open things up so far before it becomes more of a hinderance than a help. From all the info that's already been gathered since the early 90s and people started cracking these cars open, it's pretty well been established that there's not a lot of power to be found through opening up the breathing passages in the extremes that you're taking it.

Basically, you can only go so far uphill before you start travelling down....