HC based freon replacements

[shonomore]

I will be opening up my A/C system on my toyota motorhome soon to clean/replace the clogged up evaporator.

My options are suck out the R-12 and replace it along with an extra very expensive can or two of this precious stuff. I could also convert to R-134 and if I'm lucky, have A/C that works almost as good as freon. Or, the 134 will eat my A/C system and I'll be SOL.

Another option I have been researching is recharging with hydrocarbon based stuff. Basically, it's propane. It also is apparently a damn good refrigerant. It is supposedly slightly better than freon and quite a bit better than 134. It also runs at a lower head pressure than r-12 and is not as susceptible to leaking or chewing up o rings like 134.

Only trouble is, the EPA hasn't given it their blessing yet, therefore, it's tough to find a licensed AC dude to work with it. However, if you add the r-134 fittings to the high and low pressure ports, it is legal.

There are a number of companies selling this stuff. duracool.com , macfreeze.com and redtek.com to name a few. Google HC auto refrigerants and you'll find others.

I am still a little hesitant about giving this stuff a shot and would feel better if I heard from someone else with experience with this stuff.

Anybody out there try it yet?

 

[jedhead]

Look into R406a. It is compatible with R12 ethers and works better. I plan to use R406a when I replace my broken hard line.

Bob

 

[shonomore]

I looked into 406. It is a good replacement. Similar performance to propane and it is nonflammable, but, it is a teeny weeny little molcule meaning you have to replace all hoses. It is also more prone to leaks. Propane on the other hand has a great big fat molecule, bigger than even R-12. This big fat molecule tends to not leak so much. Also, the propane based stuff is cheap.

Yeah, it's flammable. So is a lotta other stuff under your hood. So what?

 

[Ishodu]

Duracool is avail in wallmart here in Canada, says its good for both IIRC. And we can't even get 134a here.

 

[projectSHO89]

Only trouble is, the EPA hasn't given it their blessing yet, therefore, it's tough to find a licensed AC dude to work with it. However, if you add the r-134 fittings to the high and low pressure ports, it is legal.

Wrong. Regardless of what the purveyors of these products say, HC-refrigerants are NOT legal for mobile applications in the USA. About 1/3 of the states even go so far as to specifically prohibit this usage.

You will find it IMPOSSIBLE to find any licensed technician who wants to keep his license that will perform the HC conversion. Further, if you ever take it to a shop post-conversion, you will likely be turned away as soon as they hook up their refrigerant tester. Legitimate shops and technicians will not touch this stuff.

R134a works fine. Just replace your o-rings with the new green ones, flush it, and install the correct oil for the conversion, a new dryer, and be done with it.

Steve

 

[shonomore]

Steve,

I agree that finding a licensed guy to do it is impossible or nearly so. These guys are at the mercy of the epa nazis. Also, they don't want to contaminate their equipment.

As for legality, apparently it is legal so long as you change the fittings and install a sticker identifying what's in the system. The epa just hasn't given it's approval yet to the licensed techs. I am quite sure that this has to do with the highly dangerous nature of the product (where's that rolleyes emoticon when you need it?) and nothing at all to do with dupont lobbyists. Dupont, btw, holds the 134 patent.

As to the efficiency of 134, I had a slowagon with a professionally retrofitted system. It worked, sorta. The newer designed from the ground up 134 systems with larger condensors work well.

Australia, Europe, Canada and just about everywhere else realize the advantages of propane based refrigerants which include higher efficiency, lower pump head pressures and big mmolecules that tend not to leak as much or raise havoc with seals. The only problem with the stuff is that dupont doesn't hold the patent on it. Well, there is the fact that it's flammable and we know that the epa doesn't want you having flammable stuff under your hood.

 

[projectSHO89]

As for legality, apparently it is legal so long as you change the fittings and install a sticker identifying what's in the system.

Again, wrong. This is a marketing tagline that is advanced by the marketers of these products. It is against federal law for ANY R-12 manufactured vehicle to be converted to HC refrigerants. Additionally, your state of CT is one of the 19 states that specifically prohibit the usage of HC in a mobile HVAC system.

The flammability concerns are not specific to under-the-hood locations. You have to remember that refrigerant circulates inside the passenger compartment in the evaporator (INSIDE the firewall).

Look, why don't you just spend the $15 to get your MACS 609 certification? Then you can legally purchase or sell all the R-12 you want and quit screwing around with this alternative crap.

Steve

 

[shonomore]

I understand that this stuff does circulate around the cabin. I also understand that my MH already has propane lines going to my fridge, stove and water heater which also happen to live in the cabin. And they are hooked to an 80 lb tank of the stuff!!!!!! ThA/C system will use somewhere around 2 lbs.

Yes, propane can burn. Apparently 134 can as well and is fairly toxic shit, unlike propane which is fairly harmless. Also, you will damn sure know it when propane is released into the cabin as it stinks by design. I do not know if this is the case with 134.

The bottom line is, the rest of the world is using it. There is no debate over it's efficiency compared to 134. It is cheap and readily available. It has a ginormous molecule less prone to leaking.

I am willing to accept the miniscule risk that comes along with ANOTHER flammable substance on board. I think the advantages outweigh the risks.

BTW, Steve, are you a licensed AC guy?

thanks,

Pete

 

[projectSHO89]

Yes, I am licensed for mobile applications.

FWIW, the propane in your other systems doesn't get pressurized to over 200 psi in a mobile application.

Do whatever you want.

Thread closed.

Steve