Engine Build Questions

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pitaSHO

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DO NOT HONE THE BLOCK FOR THE NEW RINGS!!!

My understanding of honing is to provide a fresh surface for new rings for seating purposes. Is this not true? I honed one cylinder in my 93 when I replaced a piston, and it DID take about 500 miles before it finally seated, but when it did it has gone another 4k+ miles. If I had to do it over again I would not hone it just because I used a used piston and piston ring. I just thought that new rings would be different.

Thanks.

Chris K.
 

AREA 91

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My understanding of honing is to provide a fresh surface for new rings for seating purposes. Is this not true? I honed one cylinder in my 93 when I replaced a piston, and it DID take about 500 miles before it finally seated, but when it did it has gone another 4k+ miles. If I had to do it over again I would not hone it just because I used a used piston and piston ring. I just thought that new rings would be different.

Thanks.

Chris K.

We are only talking about the Yamaha V6.
I have been in many SHO engines and I am a firm beleaver that you do not hone the block. I have seen the cross hatch still available even after 220K!
 

Phoenix

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We are only talking about the Yamaha V6.
I have been in many SHO engines and I am a firm beleaver that you do not hone the block. I have seen the cross hatch still available even after 220K!

You still see them but they are pretty much flatened. They what a pro engine builder told me. after 250,000 KMS it had a 2/1000th of an inch of bore wear which is minimal.

I just did mine this winter with my current rebuild , he passed a quick run of a hone tool plus a run of the beads tool. Im installing the total seal this winter , we will see how it goes from there.

Im doing this to eliminate the 8k blue puff I was getting last summer. Was minimal but annoying.
 

pitaSHO

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We are only talking about the Yamaha V6.
I have been in many SHO engines and I am a firm beleaver that you do not hone the block. I have seen the cross hatch still available even after 220K!

Correct. My 93 still showed some cross hatching, but I gave it a light hone anyway. I figured I was going to replace the motor anyway and didn't have anything to loose by trying something out, so I honed it. Have you or anybody else seen bad things happen from a hone?
 

illSHOyou

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You still see them but they are pretty much flatened. They what a pro engine builder told me. after 250,000 KMS it had a 2/1000th of an inch of bore wear which is minimal.

I just did mine this winter with my current rebuild , he passed a quick run of a hone tool plus a run of the beads tool. Im installing the total seal this winter , we will see how it goes from there.

Im doing this to eliminate the 8k blue puff I was getting last summer. Was minimal but annoying.

If the 8K puff was only happening at 8k, you sure your rings are not fluttering?

I could understand maybe the whole rev range, but not one section.
 

Phoenix

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If the 8K puff was only happening at 8k, you sure your rings are not fluttering?

I could understand maybe the whole rev range, but not one section.

I always thought that rings that starts to go bad begins by puffing @ high RPM , then when they are REALLY bad , puff all the way through the rpm.

Either way im not taking any chances to rebuild this without changing them. The ones that were there were the stockers that I cleaned back then.
 

illSHOyou

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I always thought that rings that starts to go bad begins by puffing @ high RPM , then when they are REALLY bad , puff all the way through the rpm.

Either way im not taking any chances to rebuild this without changing them. The ones that were there were the stockers that I cleaned back then.

But also conventional rings have difficulty sealing at high rpm and sometimes requires special rings. I don't believe this is the case, but in certain applications something to consider. Piston speeds on the SHO are very low compared to most engines so you should be fine, unless you approach stupid high like 8,500+ rpm. :)
 

rubydist

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Since there are different opinions on whether to hone or not, lets take a minute to review what the issues are and what can be gained by honing.

As the engine runs and the rings slide up and down on the cylinder wall, and the engine goes through countless heat/cool cycles, several things potentially happen:

1. the rings will scrape material off the cylinder wall - if this is measurable, there is a ridge at the top of where the top ring stops as it travels up the cylinder wall. At some wear point, the cylinder wall is considered "glazed" - this point is different to different rebuilders.
2. the piston skirt potentially scores the cylinder wall it the piston has enough clearance to the cylinder bore to c*ck (twist) enough to scrape the cylinder wall - if this happens there will be vertical marks in the lower portion of the cylinder wall, typically in a range of around 90* only.
3. the cylinder bore may go out of round due to the thermal cycling.

Now lets review what, if any, benefit honing will have on the situation:
1. If the cylinder is worn enough to have a noticeable ridge where the top ring stops travelling, then honing is typically not going to restore the cylinder - it should be bored out and oversized pistons installed. I've never seen (in photo or real life) a SHO engine that exhibited this amount of wear. While others may disagree, I have not considered a cylinder to be "glazed" unless the honing marks had disappeared. In the case of the typical SHO rebuild, the cylinder honing cross-hatching is still readily apparent.

It is important that the cylinder wall have visible cross-hatching to allow adequate oil retention on the cylinder walls. If the cylinder wall is too smooth ("glazed"), then the ring will wipe it too clean, not enough lubrication will exist and excessive wear will result.

2. If there is some slight scoring of the cylinder wall from the piston skirt, it is possible that honing will smooth this out and improve the situation. If there is significant scoring, then the cylinder needs to be bored oversize. This is especially true if the scoring runs up into the area where the rings ride, which in the SHO engine is a long way down toward the bottom of the cylinder wall.

3. While some people might claim that honing will make an out of round cylinder round again, it really will have virtually no effect on that. The only way to make it round is to bore it oversize, since the boring bar will make it round while the hone will not.

Round cylinder bores are very important to engines like these that have low-tension rings. Therefore, yamahaSHO's advice to take a seasoned block and bore it out will result in the best and most robust end result, if done properly. However, pitaSHO has said that he is after a good budget rebuild, not the 'uber-build', so boring a 3.0 to 3.2 is probably going to exceed the budget on this project.

If the original cross-hatching is still plainly visible, and no significant scoring is visible, no honing is required. Would it be better to do a light hone? Possibly, but I would only do a few passes with the bead tool, not using the 'regular' hone at all.

Would it be bad to do a 'full' hone? Probably, because in doing so one would likely open up the bores enough that the piston clearance would be too large, which would promote piston c*cking in the bore and causing more scuffing and more wear faster.
 

pitaSHO

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ruby, thanks for the write-up and options. The only honing I would be doing at all would be the bead hone, not the full bar hone, or whatever it's called. I neglected to mention that.

Even though I'm not going to do everything here, I might consider boring to a 3.3L. Would I need over-sized pistons or just over-sized rings? I like options. :) How far does this push the reliability of the cylinder wall?

Thanks.

Chris K.
 

shopartsnw

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P.S. to Chris or any other engine builders. I have a custom built 3.2L torque plate for boring the block. I am sure I could work out some sort of rental if anyone needs it.

Mike
 

rubydist

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Even though I'm not going to do everything here, I might consider boring to a 3.3L. Would I need over-sized pistons or just over-sized rings? I like options. :) How far does this push the reliability of the cylinder wall?

If you bore to 3.3 you will need larger pistons.

From what I've read, you would want to measure the block first, to ensure that each cylinder has enough stock to allow boring - some of the 3.0s at least apparently had thinner cylinder wall castings, and did not have enough stock to allow boring to 3.3
 

pitaSHO

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Well, that option is out then. I'm not going to buy new pistons. I believe the 94-95 3.0's had the thicker walls. Mine's a 95.
 

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If you bore to 3.3 you will need larger pistons.

From what I've read, you would want to measure the block first, to ensure that each cylinder has enough stock to allow boring - some of the 3.0s at least apparently had thinner cylinder wall castings, and did not have enough stock to allow boring to 3.3

I believe that all the sho v6's have .200 thick cylinder walls.

Any 3.0 can be bored to 3.2
 

pitaSHO

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Back from the dead!

OK, it was a slow year and I'm getting close to getting something done on this project. I have my crank, block (bead honed), rings, rod bearings, and some low mileage main bearings (decided not to grind the crank). I'm going to be taking it in to get it balanced and had a couple of more questions:
- I was looking at getting the rods resized and my engine builder suggested that he check them first and only resize if necessary. This sounds good to me. Thoughts?
- As far as the heads go I was just going to do valve stem seals, but he asked if I wanted a three angle grind for the valve seats. Should I do this with the original valves?
- I remember hearing somewhere that if the bottom is rebuilt but the top isn't there is the chance of a SHO-Boom, which I would want to avoid. Is this true? If so, what do I need to do to the heads while I have them off? New valve guides with original valves? new valves with new guides? leave them alone?

Also, on engine breakin, I know I want to beat the crap out of the motor for the breakin, but how do I get it out of the garage and on the street and romping on it when it takes 20 minutes to burp the cooling system?

Chris K.
 
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yamahaSHO

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It shouldn't take 20 minutes to burp the cooling system. After initial fill of the block/radiator/overflow, I just take it out. It eventually burps itself.
 

mikes sho

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does anyone know where i can find a new oil pump or a rebuild kit for one? im rebuilding my 3.0L 95 and want to replace the one thats in the motor now.
 

jayro

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does anyone know where i can find a new oil pump or a rebuild kit for one? im rebuilding my 3.0L 95 and want to replace the one thats in the motor now.

If you post in the Wanting to Buy section I'm sure there is someone who would have one for you. Why do you want to replace the oil pump? They are mechanically driven and don't usually fail.
 

mikes sho

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fresh motor and my ford tech thats helping me says the oil pressure isnt where he would like it to be and my bearing clearances are all good, just better safe then sorry
 

yamahaSHO

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Where is your oil pressure. These have high volume pumps and oil pressure will be low.
 

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