Car Wont CRANK Part 2

[Snake2715]

Ok,

1993 Auto ~70k miles. No codes previously runs great.

You can check my previous post here:

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=48044

(I Think it will need to be copied and pasted into a new address bar to crorectly link)

Anyway quick back story

Car ran fine last week, got drive through car wash, and 10 minutes later stopped for gas. The car simply wont crank from that point on. One Click per ignition turn.

I had it towed home and pulled the starter. Supposedly the starter was bad.
Bought a new Bosch unit installed it and turn the key. CLICK. Nothing more each key turn provides one click.

Removed the new starter and Autozone tested it and it turned over fine. They said the new starter was good.

After 16 replies (some of my own) on the previous thread I have tried the following none of which fixed the one click issue:

New battery with new cables ran directly to starter.

Tested the old (3 month old) battery and had it charged. It tested good and is holding 12.6 volts. Installed it into the car and also ran it with the new wires. Each way only provided me with one click.

I pulled the steering column cover and the ignition switch appears good. Removed the plug and verified it was clean etc.

Also I am getting 12.5+ or so volts at the starter, alternator and at the fuse box near the drivers side firewall. The fusable link up there gets juice on both sides.

I also put the car in Drive and it wouldnt crank at all. It would not even CLICK so I know that my floor shift is hooked up correctly. It will give one click in either park or neutral per ignition turn.

Here are my questions.

Is there a way to test the ignition switch? Does thit fit the symptoms?

When I hooked up the starer I hooked the selinoid wire up to the 'S' terminal. I hooked the positive cable and the Alternator/Fuse box cable up to the 'B' terminal and I hooked the ground up to the 'M' terminal (which has the braided selenoid to starter wire or ground strap.)

/\ I am 99% sure thats the correct way but I figured I would ask.

Next if I jump the 'S' Selenoid wire and the 'B' terminal and start the car this way. If I have an electrical short somewhere between my ignition switch and the starter will it catch fire or do more damage once the car is running?

I ask because I want to take it in to the garage if I cant fix it tonight.

I tried multiple times to crank the car testing voltage in different areas. I noticed that my battery cables became slightly warm....

This is my last ditch attempt to fix it on my own. I am at a complete loss and am not the most proficient when it comes to electrical issues.

Thansk to anyone with suggestions...

 

[NiNeTy Fo SHO]

One thing that may help.

Take your starter to Advance Auto Parts to be tested. I dont know if AZ runs more power through the starters or what, but I had starter woes and had AZ test it. They said it was good...replaced all my cable connections, ignition, etc. and couldnt figure it out.

Took the exact same starter to advance and they tested it. They say its junk; got a new one from them, and have not had a problem since.

Something to do with how AZ tests them will make a crappy starter work just fine for them, but when you put it in your car or get it tested somewhere else (advance), you cant get it to work to save your life.

 

[Redskull]

Hook up a meter (set to VDC) to the the battery, and write down the readings with the car off, the car on, and the car starting. It shouldn't really drop more than a couple volts when you start it. If it does, check all the cables (make sure they are no ******* motorcraft ones, not Autzone-brand **** cables). Also, check to make sure the ground connection on the car side is not all rusted up.
Report back those readings and i'll think of some more stuff

Alan

 

[Snake2715]

Redskull,

When you say car 'on' do you mean ignition to the run position? Because right now the car isnt running so i can turn it 'on' in a sense.

I will gt those readings for you.

Let me clarify that you recommend the Motorcraft ones and not some Autozone crap cables right?

 

[Redskull]

I mean the three differn't positions Key off (like you can take it out), key in run (the car comes 'on', with the lights and accessories, fuel pump runs for a bit) and 'start' position (the spring loaded one that actually turns the starter). They should all be about the same.
The thing about the starter cables is that any little amount of resistance in the stater circuit can put you up **** creek in a hurry, so if they are the wrong guage, or even just a couple inches too long than they're designed for, trouble ensues. Never worth it to half *** the starter or charging. Definitly Motorcraft part #'s on this (assuming thats where the problem lies).

 

[Snake2715]

Thanks for taking the time. I will do this asap upon being home and report back in the AM.

 

[TYSHO]

New/Rebuilt starters can be bad out the box. Testing it in the store doesn't mean crap. As far as I am concerned, they don't have any load on the starter to be turning. I had a new starter that was bad from the get go and was told it tested good. I explained and walked out with a new starter and my SHO then started.

 

[NiNeTy Fo SHO]

New/Rebuilt starters can be bad out the box. Testing it in the store doesn't mean crap. As far as I am concerned, they don't have any load on the starter to be turning. I had a new starter that was bad from the get go and was told it tested good. I explained and walked out with a new starter and my SHO then started.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say above. My first "replacement" starter lasted about a week...it barely started the car the few times that it did.

Me and my brother have had AZ test starters they say are ok, but advance tests show they are crap.

Also, if it clicks when turning the key, that means either the starter is bad, or the battery doenst have enough a** to turn the starter. (taking for granted the wires are ok, and the connections are tight and fairly clean.) Clicking means the ignition told it to start.

 

[Redskull]

I need some real quick clarification on something: In your post you said you had the ground wire hooked up to the 'm' terminal, which is possibly a real big problem.
1. The RED battery cable goes to the forward terminal on the solenoid (the B terminal).
2. The short braided wire goes from the rear terminal (the M terminal) to the starter
3. the tiny ignition switch wire with the clip goes on the middle, upper terminal (the S)
4. the BLACK battery wire goes on the entire OTHER end of the starter, up against one of the mounting bolts. If it's not there, and it's mounted to the same terminal as the braided wire, then you are creating one helluva short (positive terminal directly to negative terminal!) whenever you crank it, and worse case scenario you blow up your garage.

"and I hooked the ground up to the 'M' terminal (which has the braided selenoid to starter wire or ground strap.)"

If that is the way it sounds, DON'T crank it! unhook the ground cable and put it in the right spot. i'll see about getting a picture of it and putting it up here

That can certainly be your problem!

 

[Snake2715]

Redskull,



That is EXACTLY what I am doing. I pulled the starter and about 3-4 days later went to hook the starter back up. I swear they had the negative on the 'M' Terminal but I have been working a lot of hours and my memory has went to crap over the past couple weeks.

That would explain why I would have hot wires etc. Its surprising that I have not ruined my battery or shorted out a wire somewhere....

So you say to ground the negaitve on the starter bolt. Leave the braided wire (between selenoid and starter motor) alone, hook up the 's' terminal to the ignition wire. And the two battery wires (one solid red form + on batt and other alt/fuse) to the 'B' terminal correct?

To clarify the negative from battery goes on the opposite end of the starter mounting bolt. Meaning not the shim side. Correct?

Please also verify that the third from the bottom paragraph is correct. I hook both the bat and alternator cable to the 'B' terminal..

 

[Redskull]

On the drivers side of the starter, there are bolts that hold the starter to the engine. Find the bottom one (all the way at the bottom, all the way at the front, all the way on the drivers side), and follow the engine block side up. It slopes up on about a straight 45 degree angle, and right about at the point where the soloenoid juts out of the starter, there is a bolt going through the engine block into the starter.
Take this bolt out, put it through the ground cable, and screw it back in, pressing the ground cable between the engine block and the bolt. Really, though, any bolt grounded to the engine block will work.
The rest of your cables sound good.
If you PM me your email address, I can send you a labeled picture. hope this works, or at least changes the problem lol

alan

 

[Redskull]

FYI, i'm not real sure about the alternator cable; the MTX and the ATX are differnt in this aspect. The book says that the cable goes from the fuse box to the solenoid, and then from the solenoid to the B+ terminal of the generator, so i guess that means you have 3 wires (alternator, fuse box, and battery) all going to the B side of the solenoid? That's how the SLO taurie are, so it makes sense electrically, but don't take my word for it.

Can somebody else with an ATX verify this?

alan

 

[Redskull]

New/Rebuilt starters can be bad out the box. Testing it in the store doesn't mean crap. As far as I am concerned, they don't have any load on the starter to be turning. I had a new starter that was bad from the get go and was told it tested good. I explained and walked out with a new starter and my SHO then started.

My Uncle actually got into a fist fight with a guy that owned a parts store because he kept getting bad alternators from them (like 3 or 4 in a row!) for his VW rabbit. He accused the owner of selling bum parts, and the owner accused him of not having a clue, and then ended up in fists.
Turns out that the factory came out with a whole truckload of bad alternators, so every one in every store was **** out of the box, and they all had to be recalled.
Lesson Learned: Never trust rebuilt parts!

 

[fa'sho]

heny man im no expert but sometimes when you have a faulty ac compressor the compressor will lock up and cause the same symptoms youre having... same thing happened in my stang i bought 2 starters before i disconnected the belt from the engine and viola the engine started...so this is just a suggestion take both belts off and then start your engine i am almost sure thats your problem...try that and see...

 

[TankII]

I have a rebuilder in my area that uses NEW parts as much as possible in his rebuilds. Great work, priced competitvely with AZ and Company.

Most rebuilds, including AC/Delco, don't use as many new parts as is possible.

(860) 953-6999
AP Auto-Electric, Hartford, CT
Ask for Peter and tell him Dave with the SHO sent you.

TankII

 

[SHOZ123]

FYI, i'm not real sure about the alternator cable; the MTX and the ATX are differnt in this aspect. The book says that the cable goes from the fuse box to the solenoid, and then from the solenoid to the B+ terminal of the generator, so i guess that means you have 3 wires (alternator, fuse box, and battery) all going to the B side of the solenoid? That's how the SLO taurie are, so it makes sense electrically, but don't take my word for it.

Can somebody else with an ATX verify this?

alan

It makes no difference where they all join. They can be connected at the battery, at the alternator output, at the under hood fuse box or at the starter. The starter is just the shortest distance between all the components. This is the battery high current primary circuit.

You should have the battery ground at one of the starter mounting bolts.

The small wire coming from the ignition switch connected to one of the tabs on the starter solenoid/relay.

The positive cable to one side of the starter solenoid/relay.

The short braided wire is the switched side of the solenoid/relay leading to the starter brushes internally. It will only have 12V+ on it when the starter solenoid/relay is engaged

 

[Snake2715]

Yeah guys it was a dumb move on my part. I had started to suspect that i had doen something wrong.. This type of stupid crap never happens to me until this. So its taken care of. I saved a shop charge and the embarassment of bringing it to them like this.

Thanks again everyone especially Redskull..

Fa'sho I originally thought it might be the compressor. I actually had a PS pump run dry and seize on an 89 SLO that caused the same problems. I had already removed the belt and tried with no luck... Good point though.