boosted ignition problems, and fixes

[1slickRED89]

I don't think the disaster I started with is representative of most Shos. atleast I posted how to fix/bypass a weak ignition system.

is your car a build-your-own or a kit deal?

 

[ohioshodude]

i'm actually in the process of buying a FPS kit from kurt here on the forum. should be a fun project i just really don't know all that much about supercharging a car. this will be my first. hopefully it will be fun and not much will go wrong.

 

[SHOracer14]

All I have to say is tuning is the key. Make sure you know the Teecer inside and out. That is my biggest worry about boosting the 93'. The hardware is going to be the "easy" part... figuring out how to get it tuned correctly is another.

 

[1slickRED89]

The hardware is going to be the "easy" part... figuring out how to get it tuned correctly is another.

reading this post should show you big problems can be hardware too, I've only shared a small portion (the more interesting ones) of the hardware problems I have had on the forum. even though I have done no tuning yet it still runs and drives OK, up to 160% load.

thanks for the heads up Jim, I just loaded the updated DU41 update you told me about, and it looks promising. will down load that today and try to get the dataq wired up for logging wbo2.

looks like all the tables have been scaled to up to 240% load, thats helpful.

 

[SHOracer14]

Well... I put "easy" in perenthesis meaning... you will most likely have a few hardware problems at first on anything custom. Hardware setup is not really easy but to me is easier than the tuning. I know I will be pulling my hair out and using a few choice words when it comes time for me. Even if you don't have it running completely perfect for the convention I think you still sould come down because you will have tuning genius like Josh and others at your disposal.

 

[1slickRED89]

speaking of tuning, installed that update for the DU41 and it helped a bunch, still a bit soft on the upper end due to the uber rich AFRs, but def. much better, it rips the tires loose and the whole bit

also the data logs read a much more accurate 140% load (used to hit 160%???)for my 5 PSI of boost.

 

[1slickRED89]

on the topic of spark timing, WTF

After looking at the data log from yesterday I noticed the the saftot drops out for some reason, from 34-36 deg. BTDC to 12deg BTDC. this occurs BEFORE a shift point by a few clicks. everything else seems fine. is this an ATX thing or abnormal?

load is actual load in brown, RPM *100 is dark blue, red is vehicle speed, light blue is SAFTOT, and green is TPS.

any ideas????

 

[1slickRED89]

when for another run today. I had the time to connect the dataq to my WBO2(extremely cool feature BTW). I believe I used the PLX driver, that is not a prefect fit with my WBO2, as it logs about .25:1 AFR less than the meter reads on the unit itself. atleast it works.

Also, I leaned the 'WOT fuel multiplier ' to 1.2 @ 3500RPM on up, that made the AFR right around 12.3:1 all the way to red line. that's very close to the 12.7:1 AFR peak torque figure I have seen on other engines.

this car is frigin' nuts

according to the corrected data logs (becareful of the "ET" time, it appears to miss samples) it'll hit 60MPH in no less than 5.7 seconds and 90 MPH in 12.3 seconds, from a dead stop. while this is preliminary data, atleast it's positive for once!

Also It looks like it pulls spark out on all the shifts, must be an ATX thing, no big deal.

 

[1slickRED89]

Have you thought about scrapping the whole thing and going back to all stock parts? I have yet to have a problem with the stock setup on my turbo (granted, I have magnecore wires and copper plugs, but everything else is bone-stock)

Yeah, you may be right there. after a bad few months, and starting back at the drawing board, I found that my old ignition wires where a bit too resistive, 6-7kOHM/ft. that made for a 10Kv drop at each wire for a total of about -20Kv per coil. new OEM wires are on order (I found Autolite brand ones ), and the stock DIS is going back on for another go at it.

 

[AutoSHO]

If the car is too rich, it will definitely misfire... Jason's car did this the first night we had it out, it was running 10.5:1 or less and felt like it hit a rev limiter at 5000 rpm (or less). You may not have so many troubles as you think!

 

[Toolman]

If the car is too rich, it will definitely misfire... Jason's car did this the first night we had it out, it was running 10.5:1 or less and felt like it hit a rev limiter at 5000 rpm (or less). You may not have so many troubles as you think!

The old setup on the turbo was WAAAAY rich, alot of the time (probably all). It did not even register on the dyno, below 10:1 (or 9:1, not sure how low it reads) the whole time. MAde for some sweet fire farts out the pipe though!

 

[1slickRED89]

those autolite wires suck, i'll be sending out a few nasty-grams on Monday about how they fit, rather didn't fit.

where do you find magnacor wires? i'm on their website , but there must be a good place to buy them elsewhere. also, anyone ever try crane FireWire (CRN-295-2427) brand wires? they say they have 25ohm/ft resistance, less resistance = more spark.

edit: i found them on SPmotorsports website for a deal, thanks for the recommendation Tim!! should be burning up the road in no time.

 

[Axianator]

After looking at the data log from yesterday I noticed the the saftot drops out for some reason, from 34-36 deg. BTDC to 12deg BTDC. this occurs BEFORE a shift point by a few clicks. everything else seems fine. is this an ATX thing or abnormal?

As you have surmised with your follow-up post, this reduction in spark advance is the result of the factory "tranny saving" programming which retards overall timing before a shifting event. The good news is that access to all of these pathetic "tranny saving" parameters will be available for modification with the next "mega" TwEECer software release.

Also, I leaned the 'WOT fuel multiplier ' to 1.2 @ 3500RPM on up, that made the AFR right around 12.3:1 all the way to red line. that's very close to the 12.7:1 AFR peak torque figure I have seen on other engines.

Keep in mind that while the WOT Fuel Multiplier is beneficial for short-term fuel mixture modifications and testing, you don't want to utilize the function as a long-term solution for your fuel mixture modifications.

 

[1slickRED89]

mega? can't wait!!! will this version have helpful notes in the margins? i could use a few words here and there about what a certain feature does and why. THANKS !!!

 

[1slickRED89]

granted, I have magnecore wires and copper plugs

I had good luck with copper core sparks too. But to eliminate WOT misfires I need a super narrow gap, but then I have poor cruise stability. I need a better option. I measured an autolite XP and a autolite copper, head to head, and I found the XP takes 25% less voltage (8-10,000 Volts) to fire due to it's .6mm finewire tip, at higher test air pressures, like those seen in boost (they are near the same at idle-like air pressures). that way I can run a wider gap (for the same voltage) and get better stability/misfire performance.

to further help stability I'm going to try a projected tip plugs. same heat range, same XP firing tip, but it's sticking further into the chamber (~.06") and might help with lean-cruise misfires.

can't wait till the magnecors' show up so I can test the theory.

 

[1slickRED89]

I tried these plugs (autolite XP5224 gaped at .025") with cleaned and re-grease motorcraft wires (some old out-of-spec-high-resistance ones, till some magnecors arrive) and I saw a huge improvement Vs. small gap coppers.

I kind of want to see 'if it's just me' so I was thinking, since I have three extra sets if some guinea pigs with a 10+ PSI systems wants to try them and post their results that would help provide some more insight. free of charge, of course.

 

[Toolman]

Sign me up. I have some new magnecors on the way, and have some cold Iridium's, but I am always up for a little testing.

 

[1slickRED89]

Pm me your addy. also how rich do you run in boost?

these are on the hot side of the spectrum, but you do get some charge cooling action too from the longer tip, it's almost a wash. you just have to watch them.

 

[1slickRED89]

got the magnecors installed, these are the best wires I ever had. they actually think about the product and then make it right. they smoothed out the ride substantially. but they, like so many fixes before them, exposed more problems.

the car still has an intermittent misfire at part load, maybe WOT too, but I can't tell because the cars' acceleration is so loud and violent. I installed E-clips on my injectors (used to have just a chunk of hose) to ensure every thing was well seated (thanks for the idea in your post TWR!!) and drilled the spray tip with a 1/4" drill since I have upgraded to quad-spray FMS injectors from stock pintle style.

its intermittent because it will sputter along, then it will 'click' and accelerate pretty good and smooth out(my foot is in it to get it moving) then it 'clicks' off again. I can see a change on the WBO2 when it 'clicks', it's ~1/2:1 richer when missing.

I changed the fuel filter as well, old one was OK, but I like taking gas baths.

I am starting to think this is tweecer related since the rear bank spark plugs look slightly carboned (running rich) compared to the front bank whose sparks are pearl white. this coinsides with different values for pulsewidth ETC in my data logs. any other tweeced ATXs' have this symptom?

 

[Axianator]

got the magnecors installed, these are the best wires I ever had. they actually think about the product and then make it right. they smoothed out the ride substantially. but they, like so many fixes before them, exposed more problems.

Excellent news. If/when my Taylor 8mm wires ever start to fail, I'll have to give the Magnecors a try.

its intermittent because it will sputter along, then it will 'click' and accelerate pretty good and smooth out(my foot is in it to get it moving) then it 'clicks' off again. I can see a change on the WBO2 when it 'clicks', it's ~1/2:1 richer when missing.

These symptoms sound almost identical to the problems that TexanTony and I experienced on his blower car before he left for the convention. Unfortunately, due to his convention-minded schedule and our somewhat time-limited tuning sessions, we didn't have enough time to make a full diagnosis and repair of the problem before he left for Memphis. Even so, I suspect that the problem is a combination of his 90mm MAF's position/orientation and some other airflow piece or component. Further testing will reveal whether this is true.

I am starting to think this is tweecer related since the rear bank spark plugs look slightly carboned (running rich) compared to the front bank whose sparks are pearl white. this coinsides with different values for pulsewidth ETC in my data logs. any other tweeced ATXs' have this symptom?

If one cylinder bank is truly running richer than the other, then the EEC may be attempting to account for a lean condition on that particular cylinder bank. Unfortunately, there is no way to directly control or affect the fuel delivery to a specific bank with the EEC-IV programs that are utilized by the Gen 2 ATXs.

Out of curiosity, have you checked your codes recently?