AC question for group

[Mark in PDX]

Hi Guys,
My 89 with the automatic air system (red one doesn't have it and other black one has no AC yet)... has been refilled with 'HotShot' R-414.
Which is supposed to act like R-12, it is oil compatible & compressor compatible...
My question is, has anyone else ever tried this? Can you tell me about your experience?
Here is why I ask...
I have replaced just about every 'o' ring and tube/hose for my AC system in the process because I have lost the compressor, hi-pressure hose, accumulator hose.. and the manifold pressure hose that is a hard line at the compressor. Note that some of these were damaged due to my car being rear ended and the engine moved slightly and bent the manifold hi-pressure line off the compressor.. which may have been what damaged my compressor.. dunno... ANYWAY-- My system appears to hold a vacuum for about an hour -30 ?? (forget what you measure vacuum in)milibars?
Anyway, we have filled the system, but when putting it at 35psi (?) on the low side, it seems to >slowly< be leaking out somewhere. We have used a sniffer and spent an hour going over all the connections, inside & outside the car and couldn't find a leak, but over about 2 weeks, my compressor slowly starts getting more active and the air slowly gets less cold, we topped it off 1x to just keep it going for now, but anyone have suggestions on how to find this stupid leak? I had a ford dealership put in the compressor and they were >SUPPOSED< to check the system for leaks, but didn't!.. I haven't decided if I should just take it back and say, Hey, when you put the compressor on you didn't leak test it.. Please at least put dye in the system for me or something.. and see if they will.. I have a buddy in our sho club who has the lights to find dye.. but the guy actually helping me with the AC doesn't use dye to find holes.
Suggestions (prayers!! I have sunk a BUNCH of money into the AC because I don't like driving a car with a system broken...sigh
???
Mark

 

[FSUSHO]

I have an Explorer that went through 3 compressors in 3 weeks. The problem with all of them--A bad valve seat that was allowing the R-134 to leak out. If you can't find a leak in the system, that would be a good place to look. A couple of suggestions:

1.Take the compressor back to Ford and ask to exchange it. It should be warranteed.

2.Try the dye. What the ****, it may work. You can get it on loan from Autozone.

BTW: Why didn't you just convert to R134 if you have had everything replaced? It's much easier (and cheaper) to refill.

 

[Mark in PDX]

Yeah, I think I'll take it in... I'll have the dealer warrant their work first I guess.. sigh.. I hate Ford dealers sometimes though...

Why not R134? Because it is about 20% less efficient than R12 and makes your compressor work harder and it is more expensive than R414... I have driven cars with R12 & R134, the R134 cars never seem as cool nor do they really take the edge off in a black car.. R12 did.. Also, the better reason, is that r414 is normally about 20% more efficient than r12, which means your compressor should work less for the same cooling.
Of course, most of my repair work was getting the system so it would HOLD a charge, then when we finally got it working, I got rear ended and it bent the hi-pressure manifold and tweaked the low pressure accumulator hose at the firewall.. So I had to do O rings on the low side and replace the hose >again< on the high side, then the compressor went.... That was when I dumped r12 and went to r414, because I just got tired of $60/lb for r12.. They use r414 in diesels I guess, so if Truckers use it, why don't they in cars? I don't get that.
later

 

[Xs SHO 1]

Yeah, I think I'll take it in... I'll have the dealer warrant their work first I guess.. sigh.. I hate Ford dealers sometimes though...

Why not R134? Because it is about 20% less efficient than R12 and makes your compressor work harder and it is more expensive than R414... I have driven cars with R12 & R134, the R134 cars never seem as cool nor do they really take the edge off in a black car.. R12 did.. Also, the better reason, is that r414 is normally about 20% more efficient than r12, which means your compressor should work less for the same cooling.
Of course, most of my repair work was getting the system so it would HOLD a charge, then when we finally got it working, I got rear ended and it bent the hi-pressure manifold and tweaked the low pressure accumulator hose at the firewall.. So I had to do O rings on the low side and replace the hose >again< on the high side, then the compressor went.... That was when I dumped r12 and went to r414, because I just got tired of $60/lb for r12.. They use r414 in diesels I guess, so if Truckers use it, why don't they in cars? I don't get that.
later

Engineers for automotive manufacturers conducted research and testing on many potential substitutes for CFC-12 before selecting HFC-134a. As part of this research and testing, they reviewed the potential health effects, toxicity, flammability, and corrosivity of each potential substitute, evaluated the effect of each compound on the life and performance of the air-conditioning components in the various models made by each manufacturer, and investigated the effect of each compound on the system's cooling capacity. They determined that HFC-134a was the most suitable alternative.

R134a is also the first chlorine free HFC refrigerant, the chlorine molecules attacks the oxygen molecules in the atmosphere. It also has the same thermodynamic properties as R12. Refrigeration capacity, energy requirements, temperature and pressure levels are comparable.

 

[Mark in PDX]

Excuse me for saying so (especially since I am not a scientist or engineer by trade), but since when have big companies (auto or otherwise) ever been driven by anything but profit? Also, R414 is used by some companies, just not the general Auto company...I understand it is common in the Trucking industry.. Why didn't they use R134? Because it didn't do the job. ( got that from a friend in the industry who works at Freightliner)

R12 was banned because it was supposed to destroy the ozone layer, but it is heavier than Air (or oxygen) and sinks to the ground, thus, it is impossible for it to REACH the ozone layer... Basic science... I have talked to many AC people who all agreed when I asked them about this and the general consensus in the commercial HVAC world is that R12 was banned due to patents & copyrights $$$$$ expiring (much like the drug industry) so they invented a reason to have it killed so they could have a 'new' product to sell.
The whole thing stinks of big companies screwing us out here in the real world and they used the environmental cover as a shield because it is more noble than making money...

 

[Zap]

All you ever wanted to know about refrigerant & oils, but didn't know to ask!

I don't usually voice my 2 cents on this issue, but since the can of worms has been opened, I figured what the heck.

::steps onto soapbox::

I agree with your viewpoint on the R-12 fiasco. DuPont, in their infinite corporate greed, had studies done on the effects of R-12 to boost support for getting it banned. Then, they were able to devise a new refridgerant that they could patent, and sell for TONS more than R-12. When R-134a came out, the price per pound was much higher than R-12 is even today. Now, the prices have again fallen, and I am afraid of another "better gas" coming out. Honestly, from what I have read, all of the propaganda about R-12 is supposition. There never were any tests done with proof, but rather everything was a GUESS. That smells too much like fraud, and believe me, I am a very environment friendly person, but I don't like seeing environmental causes being used for corporations to screw over the consumer without any benefit to the environment. What they don't tell you is that junkyards are still allowed to release R-12 into the air because of grandfather clauses, and R-134a actually, car for car, will leak more due to the smaller molecules that can get by the various seals. I honestly do not believe this was the best choice for a refrigerant to replace R-12. There are a lot of gases that are more efficient (however a lot are explosive, so that's a no-no for a vehicle!). You may be surprised what you are getting put into your R-12 vehicle if you don't ask! In some cases, your life could be put at risk by using cheap propane, or the like.

Now, if that wasn't enough, do a hydroscopic analysis on the oils chosen to be used with the new HFC-134a. Freon uses Mineral Oil, which is a decent lubricant, fairly moisture resistant, and even skin friendly. On the other hand, 134a uses either PAG (Polyalkylene Glycol) or POE (Polyolester) oils. PAG oil is extremely bad when it comes to moisture. Even sitting in a bottle, or can (better) the oil will attract moisture. Moisture is the ENEMY of your refrigeration system, and there are better oils out there (PAO- PolyAlphaOlefin). PAG oils also are more harsh on the seals and skin (& paint!!) to boot. POE oils are a bit better, less harsh on all things, but still not as good as the original mineral oils.

Now, onto PAO oils! Polyalphaolefin oil is a drop-in replacement for ALL, yes ALL refrigerant oils. It is carried better in the system than the other refrigerant oils (better lubrication), and not hydroscopic like PAG or POE (it is actually a synthetic). This means that your system doesn't rot out from the inside, generally speaking. This is the type of oil which SHOULD have been chosen, but for some reason was not and STILL is not used by most folks who repair their cars. I have spoken with some seasoned A/C techs who swear by this stuff. Needless to say, if I ever fix the A/C in the '95, this is going in.

So, this Air Conditioning business is NOT simple, to say the very least. Then take into account that there are mainstream companies which sell ****** rebuilds (stick one or two new parts in an A/C compressor, paint it, and send it out the door) or have cheap A/C lines that rust easily. It's a wonder that some of these systems last as long as they do! A lot of the parts stores carry the inferior compressors, sadly. For the SHO, the FoMoCo (or generally most other new units) are a much better deal when you consider that you have to flush and refill the system if the el-cheapo compressor dies. www.ACSource.com and www.ACKits.com carry quality parts at affordable prices.

::steps off soapbox::

Anyhow, hope this is of interest to some of you looking for A/C information and remember to run your compressor for a few minutes every week, or at the very least, month, to cycle the oil and help lengthen the system's life!

 

[rangerj]

The R-12 Chemical compound was patented in the early 1930s. A patent is good for 14 years and another 14 year extension, so a possible 28 years before it runs out. The patent ran out on R-12 at approximately (no later than)1965.

R-134a was put into use in automobiles in 1993. So supposedly Dupont carried on a conspiracy with the cooperation of the worlds scientists, the various civilized nations of the world, and everybody kept the dirty little secret? Bovine excrement.

The Dupont conspiracy theary is one of the urban legends that go on and on ad nausium. The real story is that the little green men that landed at Roswell NM brought R-134a with them. They conspired with the US government to put Dupont out of business! I don't think so.

Fact, the only two refrigerants that can legally be used in an automobile in the US are R-12 and R-134a (period). It is also a fact that salvage yards are required to recapture refrigerants and not let them escape into the air. This is federal law, and most states have a similar requirement. Why would a salvage yard let a commodity escape into the air if it sells for more than $100 per pound(in some places it is up to $150 per pound)?

Did the dealership charge your system with R414? If not, be sure to tell them what is in your system so they do not contaminate their equiptment and/or their supply of refrigerant. If your R414 contaminates their equipment and their supply of R-12 you will be billed for the damages. The bill could easily be in the range of $3000. rangerj

 

[Zap]

Hmm... I was not aware of the exact specifics of the R-12 patents, but had actually seen the information about this theory in a few places. I do know that the oil information is a lot more factual than the theories behind the refrigerant wars. However, I still have questions about theories vs hard evidence. I have also read interesting studies about Teflon cookware, but that goes beyond the scope of this discussion.

However, I witnessed with my own eyes (I wouldn't touch it myself!! as I have a MVAC certification, and since you can be fined for releasing R-12 I figured I'd let them do what they wanted) a guy who worked at a junkyard cutting the A/C lines to release freon and pull a compressor for me off of a car (for a Sable). Incidentally, I have a compressor from a Thunderbird that I have no use for as the pulleys are reversed from the Sable and Tbird. I have no clue why the place doesn't have a machine to reclaim the R-12, but I am guessing they are doing OK and don't care to waste their time or money.

 

[SHO Type U]

Recovery machines are not cheap. Its worth the money and smarter to have it at the end, better have it than get fined.

 

[FSUSHO]

Sorry for opening the can!

I just figured it would be easier to charge the system yourself with R134. It is for me.

 

[Mark in PDX]

The recapture machines force you to 'can' the r12 or r134, but YOU can't normally use it, it must be sent out to a 'processor' for recycling... IE the gov't gets their cut and so does, interestingly, Dupont who happens to be the manufacturer of the 'only two legal" refrigerants that can be used( not that this is accurate) . As to the Patent dates, that is partially true, the original spec may have been patented then, but there were derivatives and such that were used and modifications for different uses that allowed the patent to be extended until the late 80's or early 90's when it finally came to an end.. I heard that from someone I trust.. I don't think the original compound used back in the 30's was really the R-12 that was put into use in the 60's which is what went away in the 90's.

Also, R414 is not made by Dupont, but their main competitor and is FULLY LEGAL to use in cars.. as a replacement for R12 and R134 just to debunk a common misconception.. Also, they can't 'fine' me for using something that is legal to put in my car. R414 is a legal and authorized refrigerant, as I stated, it is used by some companies (freightliner to name a local one for me)... Now, it would be stupid of me not to tell the dealership I am running r414, but I vacuumed the system before dropping it off to them to make sure they don't have any problems or use that as a reason not to test my system.. It has had r12 and r414 in it only, so they are fully compatible and exchangeable, and once pulled to a -30mb vacuum, they shouldn't have a problem using r12 or whatever to test my system with.

As to whether the theory is bovine output, <<Shrug>> your guess is as good as mine, but it is pretty darn interesting that only a huge company like DuPont could get their stuff 'authorized' by all the auto manufacturers...

As to the Junk yards, I don't know about your comments, but I too have witnesses several yards just release the r12 into the air, and when asked, they usually just laugh... The science behind the banning of R12 was never proven, never backed by any major credible environmental groups with chemists.. It was all hearsay or studies funded & done by Dupont themselves..

I really don't think this is a big deal.. I think though that we as the owner of the car should be able to do what we want with OUR car, including replacing the refrigerant and/or replacing the tubes with hardware that doesn't leak out of O-rings.. (grrr).. I have a buddy with his 70 ranchero with the original R12 charge on it...
- On a more positive note.. Anyone got a good idea how to refit our AC systems to hardware fittings?? How hard it might be?

 

[rangerj]

All one has to do is go to the EPAs web site to find out that the only LEGAL refrigerants for AUTOMOBILES, not trucks, buses, trains, airplanes, or certain RV applications, are R-134a and R-12 (as long as it lasts).

To clearify, anyone who does A/C work for "payment"(cash or otherwise) must recover refrigerant, and must use either R-12 or R-134a in an automobile. He/she must also be licensed and trained, and use the proper equipment. The laws regarding salvage operators are also on the web site. For now, you are not required to have a license to obtain R-134a. You need a license to purchase R-12 in quantities less than 20lbs (one container). The reality is most suppliers will not sell it to anyone who does not have a license.

An individual can put anything he/she wants into his or her automobile. He or she may have to violate some laws in order to obtain refrigerants that he or she is not licensed to obtain. The person who provided the refrigerant to an unlicensed person could also be subjected to heavy fines and possible prison time. Refrigerants are heavily regulated by both Federal and State government. They are potentially hazardous chemicals. Food for thought

As for Dupont, the patent laws are intended to allow a person (a corporation is a legal person) to profit from their ideas (intelectual property). Profit is not a dirty word. It is the American way, it's called capitalism!

The government sued Bill Gates and Micro Soft over their "monopoly" with Windows, so why hasn't the government sued Dupont regarding its monopoly with R-12 and/or r-134a? Good question. Political connections maybe?
rangerj

 

[Mark in PDX]

Just for Giggles, I went to <http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/regulations/57fr31242.html>
I read the whole dang thing... Nowhere does it state that R12 & R134 are the ONLY legal refrigerants... In fact, in the pages leading to this final text, the clearly mention the SNAP guidelines and approvals, for which HOT Shot has been approved, so it IS legal to use, and no tech will get in trouble putting it in our cars.

The Clean air Act is meant to enforce the recycling and phase out of R12, they want good substitutes that are environmentally friendly. Hot Shot uses R20 I believe, not r22, which is the other 'bad' chemical they list. Bur regardless, if you read the beginning text on this <http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/index.html> They have a background page here <http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/consumers/cons2.html> that is interesting reading since they claim that the 'Freon' particles climb 30miles into the atmosphere, but since they are chemically heavier than Oxygen, this is a known & disproved by MANY chemists & scientists not on the corporate payroll.. Much like an urban legand... sigh.. But once a lie is spread, if you tell it often enough, it becomes believed and impossible to ****...
It is debunked (in a nice summary) on this website <http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1994/vo10no23.htm> Showing that CFC's which are easily detectible by weather balloons & instruments, are NEVER shown to be near the Ozone layer.. this was all a wonderful Al Gore run change to screw with our economy.. Ooops.. that is a political statement.. sorry, but HE is personally responsible for the banning, it was him and Chafee who sponsored the amendment that became law that caused the US ban on R12.

 

[shojuan]

but since they are chemically heavier than Oxygen, this is a known & disproved by MANY chemists & scientists not on the corporate payroll..

I guess they don't know how diffusion works. :shrugs: Gee, and all this time I thought I was breathing a mixture of gases with different molecular and atomic weights. I guess I must've adapted to breathing pure CO2 down in these lowlands. I guess I better not climb to that helium layer up in the mountains!

Now, what junior high are your chemists and scientists currently attending? Their parents really ought to voice some concerns about the quality of education at those institutions. :jpshakeh:

 

[Frankiek3]

They have a background page here <http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/consumers/cons2.html> that is interesting reading since they claim that the 'Freon' particles climb 30miles into the atmosphere, but since they are chemically heavier than Oxygen, this is a known & disproved by MANY chemists & scientists not on the corporate payroll..

I'd also like to point out that our atmosphere has a tendency of having mixed air (cause by low and high pressure (wind)) which is why dust from Austraila ends up on Hawaii and why houses can be lifted hundreds of feet into the air.
It is a preventive measure that might not help a lot but is a start. Also ozone (O3) is heavier than oxygen (O2) so why arent we breathing that you ask? Well I am to lazy to look that up, but someone might answer that.

Do politics not control everything today?

Didn't Al Gore invent R-12 and Freon, oh yeah pants too? lol

 

[Mark in PDX]

I don't pretend to be a scientist, but MANY well known and Nobel class scientists came out when the R12 thing hit and said that it was all political and not real, that R12 was >TOO< heavy to make it to the 30 mile limit... Even with winds and such... <<shrug>> Most high school level teachers today can barely recite the periodic table from memory, why would I trust them? They're too busy CYA'g out here in Oregon... We spend more per kid than most states (we're in the top 10, maybe top 5) but are in the bottom half as far as quality of education...my tax dollars at work...
My research is a couple years old, so excuse if I don't recall the exact scientific terms and what not... I have no intention of trying to prove/disprove other than to point to the site where you can leap off from and do your own research...
I am well aware of the differences in our atmosphere, but my point was that even NASA couldn't find any traceable amounts of HFC in our atmosphere (as Gore & Chafee & the environmental guys who they had help them push this claimed) Nasa assumed they were going to find some based on the theory it depletes the Ozone layer... It was very embarrassing for them (nasa) when they found NO trace of them, so they pulled out of the debate... The news media covered it briefly then it died out as the decision was made and it was PC to make it and support it...

I agree with FrankieK3's comment, 'Don't politics control everything today?'--- Yup..

 

[Frankiek3]

I was just trying to decrease the tension I was reading, although I might have added to it.

oh, almost forgot Al Gore Invented the Internet.
space shuttle that was his too.

Did anyone see that simpsons?

 

[projectSHO89]

The CFCs do not migrate to the ozone layer.

They react with sunlight and the complex CFC molecules are broken down. Chlorine atoms specifically are released. They are the element that actually make it into the upper atmosphere and react with ozone.

Steve

 

[Mark in PDX]

The CFCs do not migrate to the ozone layer.

They react with sunlight and the complex CFC molecules are broken down. Chlorine atoms specifically are released. They are the element that actually make it into the upper atmosphere and react with ozone.

Steve

Steve,
This is the junk science that has been debunked.. They can't FIND chlorine or any derivative near the Ozone layer.. It was all made up by Dupont and scientists on their payroll, and Environmentalists (non-scientists for the most part) who wanted a cause.
And a bunch of politicians who always could use some $$$ and DuPont was quite generous that year for them.

Go back and check out the link I gave to debunk that science.. If I recall, the website listed it's sources so you can go check it out with the chemists that debunked that theory... You can even check with NASA since they specifically tried to prove this theory and failed.

 

[Xs SHO 1]

Steve,
This is the junk science that has been debunked.. They can't FIND chlorine or any derivative near the Ozone layer.. It was all made up by Dupont and scientists on their payroll, and Environmentalists (non-scientists for the most part) who wanted a cause.
And a bunch of politicians who always could use some $$$ and DuPont was quite generous that year for them.

Go back and check out the link I gave to debunk that science.. If I recall, the website listed it's sources so you can go check it out with the chemists that debunked that theory... You can even check with NASA since they specifically tried to prove this theory and failed.

NASA will only tell you what they want you to know, they won't tell you everything. They claimed they failed, but did they really?