smoking every now and then

[luigisho]

If you search for valve cover gaskets there are posts about reusing and treating to soften them up and/or using rtv to get them to work. Alot of these are from years ago so not sure what shape they are in now. All the cam failures made upper gaskets get used up at a faster than normal rate. Also the engine was such a small production run I can't remember an aftermarket run of these

 

[Craig]

They had a kit for my 89' at all the autoparts stores that came with spark well gaskets and valve cover gaskets. It was about a $100.

Can anyone give me an estimate on what a fair price would be for the catch can solution for my 1989 SHO. What do you think rubydist? It sounds like you've done the job.

Also, can the factory oil separator bee emptied??? The picture in my 1989 SHO engine book of the factory oil separator looks like it may be built into the engine.

 

[luigisho]

They had a kit for my 89' at all the autoparts stores that came with spark well gaskets and valve cover gaskets. It was about a $100.

Yeah. He asked about the v8 car. That's a whole different motor from the v6 yamaha. I remember quite a few of us had to reuse them.

 

[leolove]

Yeah. He asked about the v8 car. That's a whole different motor from the v6 yamaha. I remember quite a few of us had to reuse them.

I gotca email from sho source they got the one i need just not the front one

 

[luigisho]

I gotca email from sho source they got the one i need just not the front one

That's good luck! hard to find any. they are the first ones I would check with for hard to source stuff like that. Some of the v8 stuff is unobtanium. Just such a small run

 

[Craig]

I've brought rubydists responses about this intermittent smoking/oil separator sloshing/catch can together here to ask a few more questions.

It is not smoking out the tailpipe from valve stem seals. On this engine, with the way the shim cap fits over the top of the valve stem, they use almost no oil even with ruined valve stem seals. I have taken apart engines that did not smoke and the exhaust valve stem seals were all totally gone (all the rubber was gone).

What you are describing is much more likely that there is enough oil in the "oil separator" that in certain cases (how you turn or the angle of the car) it will **** some of that into the intake and cause it to smoke. A catch can is a very good idea anyway on this engine.

Modern emission controlled engines do not vent crankcase pressure (blowby) to the atmosphere, they recycle it into the intake via the pcv valve (positive crankcase ventilation). On the SHO engine, that is different from many engines in that it consists of a hose to a rectangular enclosure (oil separator) under the intake manifold that is supposed to separate out the oil so as to minimize the amount of oil ingested by the intake. This does not work as well as it might, as the oil separator tends to collect a good amount of oil, some of which can get sucked into the intake in excessive amounts in certain situations. This can be improved by installing a catch can. The catch can is designed in such a way that the blowby and oil mixture enters the catch can and the flow takes a sharp turn, which tends to separate the oil out of the mixture and allow it to be captured in the can rather than being sucked into the engine. In the SHO engine, the catch can should be installed before the oil separator. If you search online for "catch can" you will see examples of what this is and how they are installed.

The catch can needs to be emptied from time to time. Its not a difficult job to do, except that the hose to the oil separator will likely be hard as a rock from being roasted for 20 years, so it will be hard to get off.

The catch can will fill with oil over time. Depending on the exact style of the catch can you obtain, they typically unscrew or unclip the "pail" from the "head" so you can dump the oil out of the "pail" part, at which point you can clean it as you wish. If you never empty the catch can, eventually it fills up with oil so the oil is carried into the factory oil separator just like it is now.

Additional Quesstions:

Can the oil separator be checked to see if its full as a first step?

If it is full, should or can it be emptied as part of the job along with replacing the hose, PVC valve, and putting the catch can in.

What would be a fair price for this job - just a ballpark?

Can most professional mechanics do this work?

And does the intake manifold have to come off each time I empty the catch can?

It would help to get answers to these. My mechanic may have decided not to work with the car anymore. I sure hope not, but it may be. I may be in search of a mechanic again. I would like to keep on with the car. I live in a lonely place to have this car and many of the mechanics are not honest.

 

[rubydist]

Most of us figured out a long time ago that if we are not able to do the work on these SHO vehicles, that we likely cannot afford to own them. They have enough uniqueness that not many mechanics were that familiar with them, and most of those who were have now retired.

You can check the factory oil separator to see how much oil is in it, but you need to remove the intake manifold to get to it. It should be emptied out as part of the project. I would expect a mechanic to charge you 3 hours or maybe even 4 to do that part of the project. Installing the catch can should be an hour of labor or less, in addition. If the catch can is installed properly, it will be accessible without having to remove anything other than the can itself to empty it. Depending on what labor rates are in your area, you can get an idea of the cost from those time estimates.

 

[Craig]

Thanks a lot for your help rubydist.

 

[leolove]

I couldn't find the page i was looking for on this site but thank you everyone you all the help i really appreciate it

 

[NoSlo]

Most of us figured out a long time ago that if we are not able to do the work on these SHO vehicles, that we likely cannot afford to own them. They have enough uniqueness that not many mechanics were that familiar with them, and most of those who were have now retired.

You can check the factory oil separator to see how much oil is in it, but you need to remove the intake manifold to get to it. It should be emptied out as part of the project. I would expect a mechanic to charge you 3 hours or maybe even 4 to do that part of the project. Installing the catch can should be an hour of labor or less, in addition. If the catch can is installed properly, it will be accessible without having to remove anything other than the can itself to empty it. Depending on what labor rates are in your area, you can get an idea of the cost from those time estimates.

There's nothing to "empty" in the oil separator. It's just a plate in the top of the engine between the cylinder banks, has a pipe hookup for the PCV outlet hose in the top, and on the bottom inside it also has a simple curved pipe.

There is also nothing to fix about the oil separator - it worked fine in thousands of non-smoking SHOs.

Something else is going on - excessive blowby causing pressure, leaking rings burning oil, for example (somebody that not cleaning spark plug wells before removing plugs could cause...) Clogged up or mis-routed hose from the front of intake to throttle body or rusty throttle body ports.

The valve-cover-to-throttle-body hose, for example, flows into the engine normally, but on WOT, will reverse and put blowby into the intake - a better place to add an oil trap can.

PCV-system oil vapor would cause intake oil coating before it burned.

I would take off the throttle body and ensure each of the PCV pipes are clear and a drill bit can be passed through them, likewise the same inside the TB, run a wire through the three little holes untll they are clear.

 

[Craig]

Called a couple mechanics. Haven't found one that has heard of a catch can. I called Ford and the service manager said he had no idea. I'm sad to have lost this country mechanic if I have. He is a talented and honest man.

 

[NoSlo]

Called a couple mechanics. Haven't found one that has heard of a catch can. I called Ford and the service manager said he had no idea. I'm sad to have lost this country mechanic if I have. He is a talented and honest man.

The SHO does not have an oil trap or catch can. All the suggestions here are about adding an aftermarket one to one of the PCV hoses - which should only be done if you actually determine that this kind of band-aid will rectify some other engine problem that you aren't going to fix the right way.

One instead has to apply some thought, and ponder what the mechanic might have done to make a previously perfectly-functional car smoke after doing a regularly-scheduled service interval.

Here's a couple images of the positive crankcase ventilation system, and the two hoses one might re-route.





The outlet from the front valve cover to the throttle body can actually pick up a decent amount of oil and blow smoke out the tailpipe if you suck on it (or if you have excessive blowby or the other PCV port is plugged up), from my various experiments applying engine vacuum to the crankcase.

(expanded list of censored words that make this forum nearly useless for discussing cars: suck, blow, screw, knob, bang...)

 

[Craig]

NoSlo, thank you for your insight. The mechanic did find a a a black coating in the tail pipe. He ran a test that told him the rings were OK. The smoking is intermittent and does seem to be associated with the angle and momentum of the car, like taking a banked curve and coming to a stop. or coming to a stop coming down a grade, or just coming to a stop. I think he replaced the plugs when he put new spark well gaskets in. I'm sure he cleaned the wells if needed.

What is excessive blowby causing pressure NoSlo? Again I'm not much of a mechanic and I am a conservative driver.
I'm 70 years old now.

Your suggesting that the mechanic look for a clogged up or mis-routed hose from the front of intake to throttle body or rusty throttle body ports.

The valve-cover-to-throttle-body hose, for example, flows into the engine normally, but on WOT, will reverse and put blowby into the intake - a better place to add an oil trap can.

PCV-system oil vapor would cause intake oil coating before it burned.

Your suggesting that the mechanic take off the throttle body and ensure each of the PCV pipes are clear and that a drill bit can be passed through them, likewise the same inside the TB, run a wire through the three little holes untll they are clear.

The last job the mechanic did included the CAM seal and CAM position sensor, the spark well gaskets, spark plugs, and wires, valve stem seals, and valve cover gaskets. He feels like the job is right.

NoSlo, would the job that the mechanic did disturb the throttle body maybe clogging the PVC pipes and do you think the throttle body situation can produce the intermittent smoking symptom? Do you have to take off the intake manifold to examine the throttle body. Could you talk about the job a little please? This area has never been serviced. Should I replace any hoses just because they are 31 years old and is there a PVC valve to replace. It only mentions it for the 5.0L engine in the maintenance schedule.

Thanks everyone for your help. You all have help me several times through the years. I sure hope the mechanic can figure this out.

 

[Craig]

There is something I forgot that the mechanic said he fixed I did not understand and I guess I didn't pay much attention at the time. He said after the seal job, when he test drove the car, the car overheated. He said he found a split hose in a cluster of hoses going into the throttle body I think. He said he replaced all the hoses.

 

[luigisho]

Overheated can mean a few things. Check your oil and coolant for cross over oil in coolant or coolant in oil. If it overheated badly it could warp the head or damage the gasket sealing. That's not 100% just something to look at.

 

[Craig]

The car is running good. If I could just get past this smokeup problem. The reason that I brought up the hoses is the possibility that
They did not go back in the way they came out.

 

[Craig]

NoSlo, could the job that the mechanic did disturb the throttle body maybe clogging the PVC pipes and do you think the throttle body situation can produce the intermittent smoking symptom? And do you have to take off the intake manifold to examine the throttle body. Could you talk about the job a little please? It would help me in talking to whoever looks at this. This area has never been serviced. Should I replace any parts just because they are 31 years old.