Upgrading the brakes... some advice needed AND given!

[RonPorter]

I will pass on the SS lines. The 911 guys, years ago, determined for most uses, they weren't worth it. IMO, they are like getting new tires. Car feels so much better, but compared to what? The old worn out ones. Same with SS lines. Put in new rubber ones, THEN go to SS, and see if you feel anything. Not that they don' have a place on serious race cars with serious speeds.

Rotors are heat sinks. More metal = better heat absorption. Other than the bedding process, pads just don't have the gassing issue, that was back in the 70s and earlier.

There aren't any tests I'm aware of that prove that holes/slots do anything at all. Except add to the new car fund of the folks who sell them.

How do you know what is "good steel"? Or bad steel? I'll wager that the bulk of all blank rotors comes from China, Mexico or somewhere overseas. You, nor I, can tell what is "good quality".

As with SS lines, if you are running a serious race car, with high speeds over long time periods, buy what you can view as being the best. Having to haul down from 200+ mph in the 23rd hour of a 24 hour race is kinda important.

For anything you do on a street car, from the dragstrip to track days, I'll stay with blank rotors and good pads. Been working great for me for 20+ years of track days across multiple cars. As well as for other folks I've run with. I've NEVER seen an issue with blank rotors, the ONLY failures and cracking issues have been with the drilled/slotted. Plus, after about 6 months of driving, the holes are plugged with dust & debris.

Nobody warps rotors on the street! That has been the mantra since the SHO came out. Then, as now, uneven pad deposits. Stop Tech even had an article on it. And from the pre-PDF days, I wish I had saved the R&T tech article about how race cars don't warp rotors, either.

Found the article :

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

 

[JAMES'12SHO]

I will pass on the SS lines. The 911 guys, years ago, determined for most uses, they weren't worth it. IMO, they are like getting new tires. Car feels so much better, but compared to what? The old worn out ones. Same with SS lines. Put in new rubber ones, THEN go to SS, and see if you feel anything. Not that they don' have a place on serious race cars with serious speeds.

Rotors are heat sinks. More metal = better heat absorption. Other than the bedding process, pads just don't have the gassing issue, that was back in the 70s and earlier.

There aren't any tests I'm aware of that prove that holes/slots do anything at all. Except add to the new car fund of the folks who sell them.

How do you know what is "good steel"? Or bad steel? I'll wager that the bulk of all blank rotors comes from China, Mexico or somewhere overseas. You, nor I, can tell what is "good quality".

As with SS lines, if you are running a serious race car, with high speeds over long time periods, buy what you can view as being the best. Having to haul down from 200+ mph in the 23rd hour of a 24 hour race is kinda important.

For anything you do on a street car, from the dragstrip to track days, I'll stay with blank rotors and good pads. Been working great for me for 20+ years of track days across multiple cars. As well as for other folks I've run with. I've NEVER seen an issue with blank rotors, the ONLY failures and cracking issues have been with the drilled/slotted. Plus, after about 6 months of driving, the holes are plugged with dust & debris.

Nobody warps rotors on the street! That has been the mantra since the SHO came out. Then, as now, uneven pad deposits. Stop Tech even had an article on it. And from the pre-PDF days, I wish I had saved the R&T tech article about how race cars don't warp rotors, either.

Found the article :

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

Found this one that supports the view I have maintained for a while. Although it does specifically state that braking distance will not improve. Just consistentcy. Which is important to me. But it is written more as an opinion piece without any data to back up the claims. I know that stop tech has incorporated a beak dump that tests and proves out new designs. It is a tool that gives them actual data and would prove and disprove many theories/myths, but they hold most information proprietary to them. It does make me feel that they have invested sufficiently to trust that their products aren’t just good but great. Their 355 mm rotors are quite amazing. Although their zinc 380mm ones look really cool. And the extra metal gained from the 380’s would definitely help with the heat sink concept. As for SS lines, the race cars we built there all had them. I rode a 49cc scooter from China when I started and had one of the engineers design me a ss line for the front. The scooter was assembled by me just one month prior so it was a relatively new rubber line that was reinforced to increase performance. The SS lines made a huge difference. Comparing a 300lbs scooter to a 4400 pound car is definitely not going to help anyone here. But I love the performance benefits and have had 3 rubber lines fail over the years and never had a SS line fail. I don’t know what psi the rubber lines are tested at but we tested the SS at 3000psi for 60 seconds if memory serves me right.
http://m.autoanything.com/brakes/drilled-or-slotted-rotors-what-are-the-best-brake-rotors.aspx

 

[SHOinVa]

I have been following this thread with great interest since I have a 2012 and the brakes need some improvement. As it stands now my fix will be an upgrading to the 2013+ brakes with new rotors. LOL For about two pages now you folks have been going back an forth about slotted and or drilled rotors, I have to admit its pretty amusing to me. I have no idea if slotted/drilled rotors are of any benefit on a street car BUT I do know all the really nice cars that are built to go fast have them. So do they put them on just because they look cool, probably but they ARE NOT going to hurt your braking performance and if someone feels good about having them, no harm no foul.

If you boil Valvoline, you need to reevaluate your driving technique!

-LOL Best thing you said on this thread, That is so freaking true, but I can say I have been on some Mountain roads that will give your brakes a fits.

And, as I repeat: Cheapest blank rotors,

- I am not going to buy the cheapest anything on any of my car's especially part on the braking system, I am going to research an spend my money smartly, LOL Most of the time anyway.

You also don't want Motul 600. Expensive, and way overkill for the street. More importantly, it's more hydroscopic than other DOT 4, as really meant to be flushed after each race. Flushing annually would be a MUST for street driving, and after every couple of track events, if you do tracks.

- That is really great advice, I really had not thought about Motul 600 but now I know not too.

Good quality blank rotors that are then drilled will offer better stopping than if left blank.

- I will just buy mine drilled already, I have a hard enough time just finding a good repair shop.
- So once again LOTS of great information that I am thankful for all of it, but I am going with the drilled an slotted rotors because all the cool kids are doing it, I believe it helps, and believing is the same as knowing.
C/

 

[SHOdded]

Street vehicles do just fine with blank rotors, tho if the pads do not have a notch or a groove, I can see a use for slotted/drilled rotors. Some mfrs like auto italia make rotors that have the crossdrilling cast into the mold if you want to check it out.

Flushing the fluid yearly is a great process to be beholden to. Many many people I talk to today have not had the fluid flushed over hundreds of thousands of miles. Yikes!!!

 

[Sgtmeatsauce1]

As a matter of course I flush my brake lines when the fluid seems dark, may not be bad yet, but it cheap, I use the aforementioned dot 4 synthetic, a 30 dollar brake fluid replacement machine. I do it maybe twice a year. Both my PP pads and the EBC yellowstuff were bevelled and had groove down middle. Love the Yellowstuff but in 3000 miles of winter driving, not my usual driven like stolen, I have used up 20% of the front pads? ut oh....

 

[RonPorter]

LOL! I found them a bit inconsistent in their praise of slotted Rotors for gases, then state in the drilled section that gases aren't the issue it used to be. Which is what I stated above. And water a non issue on pads with the pressures involved.

If slotted Rotors make you feel good, go for it. They don't prevent fade from inadequate pads, and don't lower stopping distances.

Fade under track situations are from inadequate pads. Oh, and from poor braking technique (yes, folks with high $$ brake setups and pricey fluid still boil fluid, not naming SHO guy names!).

I evaluate brakes by my track days. Unless you live in the mountains, and can drive hard enough on deserted roads, you won't press brakes as much as hot track sessions. And I have not been disappointed by putting my money into pads.

 

[SHOinVa]

Ron you have sucked me into this argument, I really tried to stay away, but in the end I am just a moth to the flame.

They don't prevent fade from inadequate pads,

If you are saying that fancy rotors (slotted/drilled) will not compensate for crappy pads. I AGREE 100% I don't think anyone will argue with you there.

and don't lower stopping distances.

If your saying 95% of the people who have them don't need them and they are of little use on the street, I agree with most of that, but I do feel like it would make them more consistent under heavy use.

I evaluate brakes by my track days.

I have much respect for your real life racing experience, an I believe what you are telling us but IMO the GEN4 is a whole different animal. SO
For the sake of a Good Argument.
The GEN4 is more like a truck or SUV then a sports car, its almost 5000 pounds once your heading down the highway, that's heavy. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the energy required (which turns to heat) to slow down a car goes up exponentially the heavier the car is, in other words it takes more than twice as much energy to stop a 5000 pound car then it does to stop a 2500 pound car. Therefore the GEN4 creates a lot of heat when stopping.
LOL My point is, if there is any car that could benefit from slotted/drilled rotors it would be a GEN4 SHO.
C/

 

[Lostneye]

For a street car with relatively mild pad compound the heat sink aspect is more important than any benefits drilled/slotted may theoretically provide(which is debatable in itself). You are taking mass away by drilling hole/machining slots into the discs.

I pretty much agree with Ron except with using the cheapest rotors, especially on a 2010-12 as the brakes are undersized for these heavy cars. Ron does make a good point though as to how to discern between crap rotors and quality rotors.

 

[IamNabil]

So... this might not be the best time to ask the question, but I'm new here, so I'll just jump in and ask:

R1 concepts rotors and pads. I really like the look of the black or gold rotors for my black SHO. I'd probably buy them slotted, because why not, and probably the ceramic pads. Has anyone used them? Good or bad thoughts?

https://www.r1concepts.com/eline

 

[RonPorter]

I pretty much agree with Ron except with using the cheapest rotors, especially on a 2010-12 as the brakes are undersized for these heavy cars. Ron does make a good point though as to how to discern between crap rotors and quality rotors.

Until someone truly has a rotor issue with a Gen 4 (remember that SHOs have had inadequate brakes for their power and size forever, Gen 1 and early Gen 2 the worst!), why waste the money on rotors? Only rotor issues I have ever seen on a SHO has been with aftermarket rotors, multiple times.

Even Rich melted a set of EBC Reds at Blackhawk. It is a pad issue, I'll bet money that no one will ever mess up the cheapest blank rotor they can find. Buy a cheap set of rotors, spend the $300 - $400 on good Carbotechs, and try to prove me wrong about plain, cheap rotors!

 

[SHOinVa]

Buy a cheap set of rotors, spend the $300 - $400 on good Carbotechs, and try to prove me wrong about plain, cheap rotors!

WOW You are really a dog with a bone, not sure why its so important for all of us to join your cheap rotor club BUT I will answer your question.
It has always been my experience you get what you pay for, there are obsessively some exceptions to this and I am no fan of wasting money BUT It is true, "You get what you pay for". Secondly proving you wrong could literally get myself killed, If I make an informed choice an it gets me hurt I can live with that BUT If I go out an but the "Cheapest Rotors" I can find an get myself killed on the interstate well then that makes me stupid.
For the record I appreciate your point of view and your advice, Based on your experience Cheap Blank Rotors are the best way to go on a street car. That is not what I am going to buy but I do understand your point of view.
C/

 

[RonPorter]

BUT.... you keep coming back to "the car is so heavy", and "the brakes are so small", which is crap. This has been the case with many cars, this isn't Gen 4 SHO unique.

And yes, I buy the cheapest. But my MAIN point is plain blank rotors. To be under the delusion that drilled/grooved/slotted are somehow "better", is silly. But it is also your money. As I've said, the ONLY rotor failures I've seen were aftermarket.

Go spend silly money on rotors, cheap out on pads, and you'll be right back where you started.

Whatta drama queen, "getting killed on the freeway"! Please, spare me! When people try to feed me crap, from vendors who need to peddle their wares to pay their mortgage, I get skeptical. And many tech articles, coupled with personal observation, as well as conversations with other track folks, tells me different.

It's your money. If it makes you you feel good, spend all you want. Just don't try to justify it with BS.

 

[SHOdded]

I know I would go blank rotors and great brake pads for sure!

 

[SHOinVa]

I admit to being a bit snarky at times but I have been very respectful to you an your point of view, I have admitted you have a valid point so I am not sure why the tone of your last post was so rude, BUT Much like yourself I cant let things go.

you keep coming back to "the car is so heavy", and "the brakes are so small

I did a little research the Gen1-3 all weigh around 3000 pounds, the Gen4 weighs just a tick under 5000 pounds, which is 2/3 of the way, too twice as much. Now lets add to that the 20 inch wheels/tires can weigh as much as 60 ponds each, I will bet they are at least twice as much as the wheels on the Gen1-3. I will not go into the physics again BUT they are not the same car and all your "experience" racing cars that weigh half as much while very important is not the end of the conversation. (Remember in Day's of Thunder when Robert Duvall explains why he keeps destroying tires". Two racers, two experiences, two different cars, two points of view.

And yes, I buy the cheapest. But my MAIN point is plain blank rotors. To be under the delusion that drilled/grooved/slotted are somehow "better", is silly

What you have repeatedly said was buy the "Cheapest blank rotors you can find" and I did NOT say you had to have or buy "drilled/grooved/slotted". My point has ALWAYS been there is a BIG difference between walking into AutoZone an asking for the cheapest replacement rotors they have and making an informed decision based on your own needs. There are plenty of quality "blank rotors" that are not the cheapest, in fact there are probably some blank rotors that cost more then some of the fancy ones.

Go spend silly money on rotors, cheap out on pads, and you'll be right back where you started.

Is there some rule or law I don't know about where you can only spend money on one or the other, you keep saying this over an over again like it has to be a choice. Once again you have a point! I agree, if you are on a budget and can only afford one, spend the money on the pads. We Agree, BUT I an lots of people can afford to buy both.

Whatta drama queen, "getting killed on the freeway"! Please, spare me!

There is really no need to be rude, maybe I am a bit cautious at times but no one who knows me would ever call me a drama queen an you don't know me, besides if you are calling someone names you are losing the argument.
Lastly looking at your profile, Do you even have a Gen4, have you driven one. For the record it is common knowledge the brakes on 2010-2012 are a problem that is why they actually changed them in 2013 an made them larger, so that is 10-12 Gen4 unique. When I upgrade my brakes because they need upgrading I will spend my money on the best quality parts I can afford.
C/

 

[RonPorter]

Gen 1-2 are around 3150 for the lightest, stripper 89 model, to around 3300-3400 for the rest. Gen 3 is 3500-3600-ish. My 99 was just over 3600 with a full tank of gas, IIRC. Gen 4s aren't near 5000, unless you count a big driver weight.

89-93 had 10.2 rotors all around. Gen 3 went to 11.6, which is the upgrade that guys do. 94-95 was somewhere between.

Nonetheless you also have bigger rotors and pads than the earlier cars had.

I used this example somewhere around, but it's basically this : If you have $600 to spend on a brake job, don't spend $400 on rotors and $200 on pads; spend $200 on rotors and $400 on pads. You will be much happier with the results.

 

[RonPorter]

And for all of the ******** that guys did about the early brakes being so bad, and warping rotors (sound familiar? Those didn't warp either, just like the 10-12 rotors didn't warp), I proved my point.

Wanted to leave my white 89 stock a few years back, so I just did new Tokicos /B&Gs, wider 17" wheels with decent tires.

And Carbotech XP10 /XP8 on a fresh set of stock 10.2" rotors. Drove it for work to from KY in the Appalachian area there, and ran both VIR and BIR (Brainerd) with them. ZERO brake issues, with no fade even at the end of a 20 minute session.

 

[Lostneye]

Gen 1-2 are around 3150 for the lightest, stripper 89 model, to around 3300-3400 for the rest. Gen 3 is 3500-3600-ish. My 99 was just over 3600 with a full tank of gas, IIRC. Gen 4s aren't near 5000, unless you count a big driver weight.

89-93 had 10.2 rotors all around. Gen 3 went to 11.6, which is the upgrade that guys do. 94-95 was somewhere between.

Nonetheless you also have bigger rotors and pads than the earlier cars had.

I used this example somewhere around, but it's basically this : If you have $600 to spend on a brake job, don't spend $400 on rotors and $200 on pads; spend $200 on rotors and $400 on pads. You will be much happier with the results.

My 2013 is over 4200lbs as it typically sits without me in it.

I agree with pretty much everything you have been saying with the continued exception of CHEAPEST rotors. saving $50 or whatever the difference for Motorcraft or another quality name brand over the cheapest rotors someone can import for China is worth the expense to me.

I do agree choosing the right pad for your car and how you drive it can make a huge difference. Also blank rotors are fine and in fact typically better for a street car for a few reasons.

 

[SHOinVa]

My 2013 is over 4200lbs as it typically sits without me in it.

I have to admit, I got that wrong since I can't seem to find the numbers I saw before, BUT its still a different car then earlier model SHO's.

I agree with pretty much everything you have been saying with the continued exception of CHEAPEST rotors.

Maybe not everything BUT This was my main point, I am not going to buy the cheapest of anything unless I do a lot of research an it meets my need.
- I truly apologize for my part in keeping this thread going way longer then its should have.
C/

 

[Lostneye]

I have to admit, I got that wrong since I can't seem to find the numbers I saw before, BUT its still a different car then earlier model SHO's.

Agreed. Cars have steadily gotten heavier over the years but 4200lbs is still a lot more weigh than earlier gens and it is well known 2010-12s have inadequate brakes. Plus add in yourself a couple passengers and a little cargo in the trunk you can easily hot 5000lbs. I was 4465 last time mine was on the scale with me in it.

I will say I mostly tool around and spend most of the time in my SHO in traffic but even when driving more briskly I haven't had issues with my 2013 PP brakes other than they feel like the car has been sitting and the rotors are all rusted up for the first couple stops when cold.

Maybe not everything BUT This was my main point, I am not going to buy the cheapest of anything unless I do a lot of research an it meets my need.
- I truly apologize for my part in keeping this thread going way longer then its should have.
C/

I feel the cheapest rotors are just that cheap metal that I wouldn't trust regardless. I could be wrong but again the price difference is worth piece of mind if nothing else.

 

[92BlackGT]

LOL... dying because of cheap duralast rotors