Musings and Questions

[Nuke]

OK, since I have owned a Gen III for years, I have had a lot of time to think about things I want to do or try on a SHO. I am not an expert, and now I have gotten into the community I thought I would start asking some questions.

Now, I already know the #1 way to make a Taurus fast. Zach taught me that. For reference, look here:

Anyway, I want a fast Gen III. That is probably an oxymoron. I am willing to put time and money into it. Oh, and I have read and reread the V8SHO.com site at least twice over. I want some actual feedback and interaction, as well as some direction for help and parts.

I guess what I want to ask first is how much potential is actually in one of those motors. I have read that the prototype was supposed to make 3oo HP. Does that mean that a good intake manifold setup, a proper tune and an exhaust that isn't the crappy stock setup is worth nearly 70 HP?

How much can easily be wrung out of one N/A? Does it do any good to make new cams? What about headers? I have never seen a set of headers for these.

Speaking of headers, has anyone here had experience with 180* headers? For those who don't know, it is like the setup Ford had on their GT40 racecars. They are called the "Bag of Snakes" Basically, since cross-plane crank V8s are not even fire cycles, they cross over 2 cylinders from each bank to help with scavenging. They look cool, and sound amazing. The only thing I think could be an issue with our cars is that instead of a 90* V8, they are 60*. And that might mess up the tuning of the exhaust pulses via that method.

Would there be any way to replicate the prototype manifold? Would doing something super crazy like ITBs be beneficial? A stand alone EMS?

Now with trannys, I know the stock one won't hardly stand up to the motor now, so something else is needed. And a 2200 RPM stall sucks. So would it be better to try to get the last NESHO 5 speed conversion, and put that in, or talk to the FPS group, and have them build a AX4N and something like a 3500 RPM stall converter? I like the concept of a 5 speed, but that seems like a lot of work. Either way, something would have to be done.

Do these motors respond well to boost? How much is too much if they like it. I know some really like nitrous on their V8s. Having owned many turbo and supercharged vehicles, I am sure I would blow more on nitrous fills in the first 6 months than a forced aspiration conversion. Plus having to refill all the time would be a pain. I am sure I would abuse the spray.

Is there anyone left that is good at tuning the V8s? I know they are kind of the red-headed step child in the SHO world, and there wasn't much support when new compared to the Gen 1/2, let alone now.

I guess that is all for now. Pray my bro is OK. While writing this, a deer wiped the car out, so I will see what is left when he gets here. Says it will make it home. Don't care about the car as long as he is OK.

 

[bpd1151]

Welcome. Zach is a great inspiration to aspire to/from as far as making those Gen's go fffffast!

Good luck in your trek, & prayers for your brother.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[SHOdded]

Hope your bro makes it home safe & sound.

 

[Nuke]

Thanks guys. My bro made it home safe and sound quite late last night. I am not going to say there wan't a scratch on him, since he had a tiny cut on his left hand, but that is it. And nothing more. I went over him pretty good. Amazing considering how the car looks.

And a report on the car. Needs a new headlight, drivers side fender, and drivers door. Not too much worse for the wear, but not something that can be driven right now.I am sure I can find a SLO to donate those parts.

 

[luigisho]

I am glad you are thinking about modifying a GenIII. I owned one for many years and it was more reliable than any SHO I have owned. That being said, you should shop around for replacement motors and see how many are available (that aren't already damaged) and what they are going for.

In my youth I would have thought about it, but it's not practical enough for me nor do i have the desire to throw that much money at it. Ask around the v8 mailing list for tuning options or individuals who can tune these cars. Kirk was monkeying around with them back in the day and Doug was putting blowers on them. Look for **** and see if he still has his supercharged GenIII and what he thinks about na/fi power levels.

 

[98SF19]

Nuke, your passion is much respected and admired. Back in 2000-2005, there was a flurry of similar passion for improving Gen III performance. Many of these enthusiasts no longer seem to frequent the forum, and their R&D can only be found by scouring v8sho or this forum. IMO, having been somewhat in the mix since 2001, the Gen III is not/was not intended to be *quick*, and it would take much more than the wad thrown on the carbon fiber hood (beautiful as it might be) to implement most of the things you suggest. You may as well rip the guts out and put in a whole new drivetrain with 5 speed and RWD, at which point you're bankrupt and it's no longer truly a Gen III. I see this Gen as a Kim Kardashian (stay with me). Beautiful on the outside, but if you've ever heard her speak, you quickly realize she's dumb as bricks. In the same way, the SHO has a sleeper quality that informed owners realize is not to be "woken up", because it just can't hang with even middle-of-the-road vehicles made today, though it's fun as **** to drive. My approach is keep it clean and give it some aftermarket exhaust, etc. to turn heads and then get into some car shows. Keep driving to a minimum and maintain as needed. But keep it off the drag strip, public OR private, unless you're looking to end the car's life on a high note (or you have a lifetime tranny warranty like me) . . .
Having said that, if you're still gun-**, it would behoove you to contact those who at least were at the front line of GenIII mods back in the day, though they may not be as much anymore. Looks like you're already aware of Kirk and Doug per your tranny comments. I see Eric Lehman is still around (E1) and Carter (Arkansho?) chimes in rarely - search "SHO R.T.S." or "Whoosh". These two guys could give you an earful on turbo/SCs.
(sorry for the book)

 

[stephen newberg]

I think that is not a bad assessment overall. Its worth remembering that the idea of the Gen III was to be competitive with the 3 Series BMWs of its day, which is now 2 decades ago as it appeared in 1996, and of course the design itself is a year or two older. A modern 3 Series would **** the old SHO, but then again, a modern 3 Series would **** any 3 Series version from back in 1996 too. Advances are constant, as is change. I do not think it is practical to try to make this car into much other than what it was intended to be without changing it so much it is no longer an SHO, really. But, there is no doubt that it could be fun (and expensive) trying.

pax, smn

 

[sperold]

If only Ford had been this excited by this engine and car.

Of course this engine can have more output with the correct changes. It takes a lot of money to figure out the correct changes.

A case in point - the old Ford Y-block from the 55 and 56 Fords has a feature exposition in Hot Rod magazine this month. They have taken a 292 inch motor and coaxed 600 hp from it, winning some kind of shoot-out for an award of $75,000.00.
Of course it is no longer 292 inches, but the point is, the seemingly impossible can be done.

 

[bubba]

I believe there's something, here for the Gen III! I'm getting parts around for something, I would have thought ford should have built! It won't be break your neck quick, but going on theory of a book I'm reading about building small blocks. And watching tuning in Japan, how they do things.

 

[Nuke]

Alright, sorry for the hiatus. I have read and read this all, and have some ideas. I am going to break this into 2 posts. It will soon become apparent why.

First of all, I love the car. Even as it sits in my garage crashed, I am contemplating what I am going to do next. I think this might be a good excuse for the Gen 4 front end conversion I keep talking about.

Now, to me, it seems like if the prototype motor could make 300+HP, then that should be attainable. Currently, I have done a proper exhaust, following the V8SHO.com guidelines. It wasn't cheap, but sounds amazing, and really opened up the breathing. I also have a old SHOShop intake I need to install. And a SHOSource UDP that needs to go on it. It will need a good tune then. Lastly, I have a hair-brained scheme for the intake manifold. We will see if it works.

I have spoke to Eric about the RTS SHO. I would love that setup, and have talked to him some about it. Seems like getting the engine and tranny here from Chiacago would be a lot of work. Plus the motor that the blower is on would need a rebuild. And mine is no spring chicken with 180,*** on the clock.

I am a decent shade tree mechanic. But I don't know these well. I want someone who can help guide me and teach me about these cars. I don't want to chrash and burn my myself. I have seen them supercharged, and would love that, but I have no way of building the parts to bolt a blower on it. I simply don't have access to that sort of equipment. The other thing I feel hindered on is no way to tune the car. Even with the CAI, intake mods, UDP and exhaust, I won't gain much, since it is stock tuned. Even if I do all my own wrenching I must have help in that area.

If I could get the 300 or a little more that the prototype made, I would be pretty happy. A 25-30% boost in HP would be welcome. If it would make 325 crank, that would be pretty peppy. Now, I am not naive enough to believe that a stock tranny can hold that. Is it better to pester Kirk for the last 5 speed kit, or just get Doug to build me something for it? It probably is cheaper to keep it ATX, and with a 3500RPM or so stall converter, it will still be fast. I have heard amazing things about Doug's transmissions and TQs.

Even if I got something like the RTS setup, I would probably end up stuffing it into a wagon. I kinda have a thing for Wagons, and might see if I can find another nice SHO powered wagon for my daily driver. Seems there is a few floating around here.

Here is what I am thinking with mine. I already have a good exhaust. Has anyone done headers? Is there anything to be gained if a set was fabricated? I have heard the stock manifolds flow well. And does anyone have any input on a set of 180* headers for these things? If I am going to the effort of having a set fabbed, what do I care?
I have a UDP, but don't have the tools to install it. But it needs to go on. Free up a few more HP.
I have the SHOShop intake. Needs to go on, and the saxacone needs to go away.
Someone posted up the patent for the prototype intake. I wonder how hard that would be to replicate, or build something similar to the 1/2 Gen manifold. I have some ideas, but again, don't have the equipment to build it. I do know a few people to ask though. So we will see how that goes.
Lastly, I need a tune. No matter how it is sliced.
And I read that you can put circa 2000 Mustang COPs on the SHO if you reuse the SHO boots. That opens up some nice aftermarket COPs. I am also thinking about a 80mm Lightning MAF.

Now, just a few more questions that I would like answers to. I have read the cams in these are pretty decent. Like a 3/4 race cam. I am guessing there isn't much to be gained there. Is that true?
And finally, what will one of these safely turn? I know the V6 SHO motor would safely turn 8500-9000, but was limited to save the rest of the crap bolted to the motor. Is the V8 anything like that? Or is 7000 as fast as you want to go?

 

[Nuke]

OK, Ryan, this reply is for you. Hope you like it.

Now, I am going to start out, and say that this isn't intended to offend anyone. And the fact I feel I need to say it, this will inevitably offend someone. I promise that is not my intention. If you are the sort of person who is easily offended, please close the thread now.

Now the disclaimer is out of the way, here it goes. Ryan, I appreciate your Kim Kardashian analogy. I have pondered it at length. I have spend many hours coming up with my reply. You have given me some really good things to think about. However, I see it a little differently. So stick with me here.

One of the first things I said in the post above me is that I love the car. It is an awesome car, and I genuinely enjoy it. I will also compare it to a person. This person has no name and is a metaphor. And part of the inspiration for this ramble comes from Dancing With The Stars.

Lets say you meet this great girl. She is smart, she is pretty and she is funny. All around a great person. You really get to know her and she is just awesome. And she is handicapped. It isn't a bad thing. She has only one leg. That has no effect on every day life, and she doesn't view it as an issue. You don't either since she is awesome. One day she comes home and decides she wants to learn to dance. Since you like her, you encourage her to do so and agree to learn also so you can be her dance partner. You both know it will be hard, and require extra work. It is well understood that there will be limitations. Because of her handicap, it will require a lot of extra work and effort from both of you. It won't be easy, but she is a good person and worth all the extra time. You guys practice and practice, and she becomes a really good dancer despite her missing a leg. You put in the effort with her and become closer than ever. Time spent and effort expended by her is double of normal to only be mostly as good as someone else.

Now, to compare it to the car. I know there are limitations. I know it can never be as good as something new, or even as fast as my Bonneville. But I like the car. It is a great car. I don't care that it will take more time, money or effort for it to make it better. It isn't about having the fastest car. If it was, I would drop the money into my 90 GSX. That could easily be a 10 second car. But that isn't what it is about. It is about I like the car, and want to keep it and fix it up. Just like the analogy above, it is about what you like and want to do. Not necessarily what is easiest.

My point in all this is it is a labor of love. I have a car I really enjoy, and know there are limitations. I know that it won't be cheap or easy. But just think how much more satisfaction there is in the end afterwards. It would be the same as taking the aforementioned girl out on one of your date nights. You guys dance and everyone is impressed with how well you both dance. And then afterwards they all find out how much she has overcome to be that good at dancing. Same thing with the car. I raced a Camaro SS with it once. The SS was faster for sure. But it was funny as **** to see how hard that guy had to work to outrun me. I just can't imagine the story that night with his buddies. I can't picture him going back and telling his friends how proud he is his modded SS outran a 20 year old Taurus. Or how much effort he had to put into it. It is one of the best races I have ever lost. Funny as **** cause the guy was genuinely ******.

Oh well. Hope that makes sense. Just like I have a car I finally like, I hope to find a girl who as awesome as I imagine the person above would be if she was real. One can always hope. Until then, it is Yamahas for me.

And yeah, I spent an hour and a half to write this. Hope it is worth it.

 

[bubba]

Have we figured out the lift on the cams? I pmed you and would talk with u there! I have theories, that could and would work! Starting to get parts together! Would be willing to chat more there!

Alright, sorry for the hiatus. I have read and read this all, and have some ideas. I am going to break this into 2 posts. It will soon become apparent why.

First of all, I love the car. Even as it sits in my garage crashed, I am contemplating what I am going to do next. I think this might be a good excuse for the Gen 4 front end conversion I keep talking about.

Now, to me, it seems like if the prototype motor could make 300+HP, then that should be attainable. Currently, I have done a proper exhaust, following the V8SHO.com guidelines. It wasn't cheap, but sounds amazing, and really opened up the breathing. I also have a old SHOShop intake I need to install. And a SHOSource UDP that needs to go on it. It will need a good tune then. Lastly, I have a hair-brained scheme for the intake manifold. We will see if it works.

I have spoke to Eric about the RTS SHO. I would love that setup, and have talked to him some about it. Seems like getting the engine and tranny here from Chiacago would be a lot of work. Plus the motor that the blower is on would need a rebuild. And mine is no spring chicken with 180,*** on the clock.

I am a decent shade tree mechanic. But I don't know these well. I want someone who can help guide me and teach me about these cars. I don't want to chrash and burn my myself. I have seen them supercharged, and would love that, but I have no way of building the parts to bolt a blower on it. I simply don't have access to that sort of equipment. The other thing I feel hindered on is no way to tune the car. Even with the CAI, intake mods, UDP and exhaust, I won't gain much, since it is stock tuned. Even if I do all my own wrenching I must have help in that area.

If I could get the 300 or a little more that the prototype made, I would be pretty happy. A 25-30% boost in HP would be welcome. If it would make 325 crank, that would be pretty peppy. Now, I am not naive enough to believe that a stock tranny can hold that. Is it better to pester Kirk for the last 5 speed kit, or just get Doug to build me something for it? It probably is cheaper to keep it ATX, and with a 3500RPM or so stall converter, it will still be fast. I have heard amazing things about Doug's transmissions and TQs.

Even if I got something like the RTS setup, I would probably end up stuffing it into a wagon. I kinda have a thing for Wagons, and might see if I can find another nice SHO powered wagon for my daily driver. Seems there is a few floating around here.

Here is what I am thinking with mine. I already have a good exhaust. Has anyone done headers? Is there anything to be gained if a set was fabricated? I have heard the stock manifolds flow well. And does anyone have any input on a set of 180* headers for these things? If I am going to the effort of having a set fabbed, what do I care?
I have a UDP, but don't have the tools to install it. But it needs to go on. Free up a few more HP.
I have the SHOShop intake. Needs to go on, and the saxacone needs to go away.
Someone posted up the patent for the prototype intake. I wonder how hard that would be to replicate, or build something similar to the 1/2 Gen manifold. I have some ideas, but again, don't have the equipment to build it. I do know a few people to ask though. So we will see how that goes.
Lastly, I need a tune. No matter how it is sliced.
And I read that you can put circa 2000 Mustang COPs on the SHO if you reuse the SHO boots. That opens up some nice aftermarket COPs. I am also thinking about a 80mm Lightning MAF.

Now, just a few more questions that I would like answers to. I have read the cams in these are pretty decent. Like a 3/4 race cam. I am guessing there isn't much to be gained there. Is that true?
And finally, what will one of these safely turn? I know the V6 SHO motor would safely turn 8500-9000, but was limited to save the rest of the crap bolted to the motor. Is the V8 anything like that? Or is 7000 as fast as you want to go?

 

[sperold]

Stay with the automatic with some enhancements like you have posted.

The rumor was that the v8 was a 2.5 Liter v6 with 2 extra cylinders.
You can find some information on the Contour SVT and the horsepower they developed (either at the clutch or the wheels) and factor it up to see what the base numbers are before a tune and exhaust and other improvements.

 

[bubba]

For sure, a properly tuned trans, will shift lighting fast, and put the 3.99 gearing in there. What we really need to do flow test the intake and see what cfms it's flowing at

 

[Nuke]

Stay with the automatic with some enhancements like you have posted.

The rumor was that the v8 was a 2.5 Liter v6 with 2 extra cylinders.
You can find some information on the Contour SVT and the horsepower they developed (either at the clutch or the wheels) and factor it up to see what the base numbers are before a tune and exhaust and other improvements.

Not a rumor. Shares the same bore and stroke. Why do think we have a 60* V8?

Anyway, a buddy had a Cougar. The 2 biggest things to making them fast is a 3.0 Taurus swap, and boost. Which makes me wonder if I could shove a SHO motor in there since they share the same bellhousing as the Duratec. Hmmmm.....

 

[98SF19]

Alright, sorry for the hiatus. I have read and read this all, and have some ideas. I am going to break this into 2 posts. It will soon become apparent why.

First of all, I love the car. Even as it sits in my garage crashed, I am contemplating what I am going to do next. I think this might be a good excuse for the Gen 4 front end conversion I keep talking about.

Now, to me, it seems like if the prototype motor could make 300+HP, then that should be attainable. Currently, I have done a proper exhaust, following the V8SHO.com guidelines. It wasn't cheap, but sounds amazing, and really opened up the breathing. I also have a old SHOShop intake I need to install. And a SHOSource UDP that needs to go on it. It will need a good tune then. Lastly, I have a hair-brained scheme for the intake manifold. We will see if it works.

I have spoke to Eric about the RTS SHO. I would love that setup, and have talked to him some about it. Seems like getting the engine and tranny here from Chiacago would be a lot of work. Plus the motor that the blower is on would need a rebuild. And mine is no spring chicken with 180,*** on the clock.

I am a decent shade tree mechanic. But I don't know these well. I want someone who can help guide me and teach me about these cars. I don't want to chrash and burn my myself. I have seen them supercharged, and would love that, but I have no way of building the parts to bolt a blower on it. I simply don't have access to that sort of equipment. The other thing I feel hindered on is no way to tune the car. Even with the CAI, intake mods, UDP and exhaust, I won't gain much, since it is stock tuned. Even if I do all my own wrenching I must have help in that area.

If I could get the 300 or a little more that the prototype made, I would be pretty happy. A 25-30% boost in HP would be welcome. If it would make 325 crank, that would be pretty peppy. Now, I am not naive enough to believe that a stock tranny can hold that. Is it better to pester Kirk for the last 5 speed kit, or just get Doug to build me something for it? It probably is cheaper to keep it ATX, and with a 3500RPM or so stall converter, it will still be fast. I have heard amazing things about Doug's transmissions and TQs.

Even if I got something like the RTS setup, I would probably end up stuffing it into a wagon. I kinda have a thing for Wagons, and might see if I can find another nice SHO powered wagon for my daily driver. Seems there is a few floating around here.

Here is what I am thinking with mine. I already have a good exhaust. Has anyone done headers? Is there anything to be gained if a set was fabricated? I have heard the stock manifolds flow well. And does anyone have any input on a set of 180* headers for these things? If I am going to the effort of having a set fabbed, what do I care?
I have a UDP, but don't have the tools to install it. But it needs to go on. Free up a few more HP.
I have the SHOShop intake. Needs to go on, and the saxacone needs to go away.
Someone posted up the patent for the prototype intake. I wonder how hard that would be to replicate, or build something similar to the 1/2 Gen manifold. I have some ideas, but again, don't have the equipment to build it. I do know a few people to ask though. So we will see how that goes.
Lastly, I need a tune. No matter how it is sliced.
And I read that you can put circa 2000 Mustang COPs on the SHO if you reuse the SHO boots. That opens up some nice aftermarket COPs. I am also thinking about a 80mm Lightning MAF.

Now, just a few more questions that I would like answers to. I have read the cams in these are pretty decent. Like a 3/4 race cam. I am guessing there isn't much to be gained there. Is that true?
And finally, what will one of these safely turn? I know the V6 SHO motor would safely turn 8500-9000, but was limited to save the rest of the crap bolted to the motor. Is the V8 anything like that? Or is 7000 as fast as you want to go?

Wait . . . WHAT?

OK, Ryan, this reply is for you. Hope you like it.

Now, I am going to start out, and say that this isn't intended to offend anyone. And the fact I feel I need to say it, this will inevitably offend someone. I promise that is not my intention. If you are the sort of person who is easily offended, please close the thread now.

Now the disclaimer is out of the way, here it goes. Ryan, I appreciate your Kim Kardashian analogy. I have pondered it at length. I have spend many hours coming up with my reply. You have given me some really good things to think about. However, I see it a little differently. So stick with me here.

One of the first things I said in the post above me is that I love the car. It is an awesome car, and I genuinely enjoy it. I will also compare it to a person. This person has no name and is a metaphor. And part of the inspiration for this ramble comes from Dancing With The Stars.

Lets say you meet this great girl. She is smart, she is pretty and she is funny. All around a great person. You really get to know her and she is just awesome. And she is handicapped. It isn't a bad thing. She has only one leg. That has no effect on every day life, and she doesn't view it as an issue. You don't either since she is awesome. One day she comes home and decides she wants to learn to dance. Since you like her, you encourage her to do so and agree to learn also so you can be her dance partner. You both know it will be hard, and require extra work. It is well understood that there will be limitations. Because of her handicap, it will require a lot of extra work and effort from both of you. It won't be easy, but she is a good person and worth all the extra time. You guys practice and practice, and she becomes a really good dancer despite her missing a leg. You put in the effort with her and become closer than ever. Time spent and effort expended by her is double of normal to only be mostly as good as someone else.

Now, to compare it to the car. I know there are limitations. I know it can never be as good as something new, or even as fast as my Bonneville. But I like the car. It is a great car. I don't care that it will take more time, money or effort for it to make it better. It isn't about having the fastest car. If it was, I would drop the money into my 90 GSX. That could easily be a 10 second car. But that isn't what it is about. It is about I like the car, and want to keep it and fix it up. Just like the analogy above, it is about what you like and want to do. Not necessarily what is easiest.

My point in all this is it is a labor of love. I have a car I really enjoy, and know there are limitations. I know that it won't be cheap or easy. But just think how much more satisfaction there is in the end afterwards. It would be the same as taking the aforementioned girl out on one of your date nights. You guys dance and everyone is impressed with how well you both dance. And then afterwards they all find out how much she has overcome to be that good at dancing. Same thing with the car. I raced a Camaro SS with it once. The SS was faster for sure. But it was funny as **** to see how hard that guy had to work to outrun me. I just can't imagine the story that night with his buddies. I can't picture him going back and telling his friends how proud he is his modded SS outran a 20 year old Taurus. Or how much effort he had to put into it. It is one of the best races I have ever lost. Funny as **** cause the guy was genuinely ******.

Oh well. Hope that makes sense. Just like I have a car I finally like, I hope to find a girl who as awesome as I imagine the person above would be if she was real. One can always hope. Until then, it is Yamahas for me.

And yeah, I spent an hour and a half to write this. Hope it is worth it.

Oohhhhh, ok. The ********* with one leg thing has something to do with my handle tag?

 

[Nuke]

I guess we are not communicating. Sorry.

And I guess your name isn't Ryan? I thought I had read that somewhere else. Now what about a handle tag?

 

[bubba]

That's for the v-6