Issues on the road to Texas

[ItsAnAdventure]

I had multiple issues on the road to Fort Worth culminating in a decision to turn back home before all **** broke loose with the '91 (Overheating and Popping out of 5th gear). I've looked in the Haynes and the Elec/Vac manuals for diagnostics and it looks like symptoms are pointing at the Intergrated Relay Control Assembly and/or (?) I'm hoping the collective brain trust came give me some input.

1. Popping out of 5th gear: This started to occur without warning while cruising at 73-75 mph. Transmission just pops out of gear randomly (neither accelerate or decelerate condition). I would clutch and shift back. Stayed for a minute or two then pop back out. Tried to hold it but became increasingly difficult. Now it pops out immediately after clutch release.

2. Overheating: Temp guage was reading a little higher than normal (Normal: middle of "M"). I wasn't seriously concerned as I had removed/replaced the needles on the guage cluster when I installed the Indi-Glo faces a while back and may have missalligned the temp needle a little. Continued to run warmer especially with the AC on. Crept higher as we got further south (warmer ambient temps)

On the way home during a gas stop I checked the fan and it wasn't running. Tapped the small module (not the Intergrated Module) and the fan kicked on but only for a short duration and did not cool the temp down much.

Ideas?

UPDATE: Tried to run codes just now (2:40 pm, 07/28/2014) and was unable to complete the KOEO test. I tried to use my OBD1 tester first and it just sat there. Changed batteries and tried again, same results. Next used the old jumper method and when I turned the key to ON it seemed to me that only a portion of the various clicks and stuff ran and then nothing. No Check Engine Light flashes or anything. Does this point to a bad control module somewhere?

Thanks,

 

[sperold]

Sounds like a lot of trouble on one trip.

On the 5th gear thing, is it a rod shifter?
Can you check the fluid in the transmission?
I am drawing a complete blank, but there are enough tranny people on here to have a solution.
In my Diagnosis Section on the trans, one case is called "Walks out of Gear" which is the closest thing to your situation. First suggestion is the linkage is damaged and it is not going fully into gear in the first place. Second suggestion is all about the shifter boot and indicates you should remove the boot and see what happens when the gear does "walk out". Third suggestion is all about the console interfering with the shift handle. Fourth suggestion is broken engine mounts and Fifth is damaged internal components like shift forks, rails and detent system.

Fan not working sure sounds like the relay in the Integrated Relay Control Assembly that looks after the fan. That doesn't explain the higher temp at the start of the trip, but maybe that was the needle position change when the background was changed.

As far as no codes under any condition - no ideas at all.
I have a 93 (automatic car changed to standard) that will perform the Key on Engine off test but will not enter the Key on Engine running test - and I have no idea how that condition exists either.

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

Sounds like a lot of trouble on one trip.

On the 5th gear thing, is it a rod shifter?
Can you check the fluid in the transmission?
I am drawing a complete blank, but there are enough tranny people on here to have a solution.
In my Diagnosis Section on the trans, one case is called "Walks out of Gear" which is the closest thing to your situation. First suggestion is the linkage is damaged and it is not going fully into gear in the first place. Second suggestion is all about the shifter boot and indicates you should remove the boot and see what happens when the gear does "walk out". Third suggestion is all about the console interfering with the shift handle. Fourth suggestion is broken engine mounts and Fifth is damaged internal components like shift forks, rails and detent system.

Fan not working sure sounds like the relay in the Integrated Relay Control Assembly that looks after the fan. That doesn't explain the higher temp at the start of the trip, but maybe that was the needle position change when the background was changed.

As far as no codes under any condition - no ideas at all.
I have a 93 (automatic car changed to standard) that will perform the Key on Engine off test but will not enter the Key on Engine running test - and I have no idea how that condition exists either.

Yes, it is a rod shifter. Not sure if there is any damage to the shift mechanism itself as the car has shifted with relative ease for as long as we have had this car. I haven't checked the fluid level but will tomorrow. Also haven't done anything to the console recently that would have created an interference issue.

I swapped in a different module that I had sitting in my parts inventory but am not absolutely certain that it was fully functioning.

 

[sperold]

It is nice that the transmission internal parts is way down the list of possible problem areas in that "walks out of gear" issue.

The rod shifter may have to come off as it is fairly complicated and could be an issue.

Just check if there is any oil, the level is not too important at this point. But is sounds like you have oil if everything else is normal and there are no strange noises.

I am pretty sure you have to use a module with the same Letter printed on it, but you probably know that. It is usually one of the big relays and there are stories of people repairing just the one relay.

On this trip, you have lived up to your name.

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

It is nice that the transmission internal parts is way down the list of possible problem areas in that "walks out of gear" issue.

The rod shifter may have to come off as it is fairly complicated and could be an issue.

Just check if there is any oil, the level is not too important at this point. But is sounds like you have oil if everything else is normal and there are no strange noises.

I am pretty sure you have to use a module with the same Letter printed on it, but you probably know that. It is usually one of the big relays and there are stories of people repairing just the one relay.

On this trip, you have lived up to your name.

All good tips. I'll let you know what I find. And my name refers to many things (starting with Kris, my wife)

 

[rubydist]

well, life is an adventure for sure...

while the trans internal components may be a ways down the list of possible issues, in my experience the most likely cause of not staying in gear is internal damage to shift fork or syncro asm or bearings.

does the check engine light ever come on? (maybe its burned out) you can check codes with a 12V light under the hood in place of the paperclip in that case.

I agree with the ccrm being the likely culprit for the fan not coming on. be sure to get the same letter code ccrm as you now have, since the others are different internally.

 

[sperold]

On the transmission issue, gears 1 through 4 are on one countershaft and gears 5 and reverse are on another.
I would seem that if something is amiss with gear 5, then reverse may have an issue too.
Have you tried going is reverse for awhile to see if a similar symptom appears?

After you have done a reverse trip, see if it stays in 5th gear any longer.

Thinking back, did you have an issue with reverse that maybe started this 5th gear thing.

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

well, life is an adventure for sure...

while the trans internal components may be a ways down the list of possible issues, in my experience the most likely cause of not staying in gear is internal damage to shift fork or syncro asm or bearings.

does the check engine light ever come on? (maybe its burned out) you can check codes with a 12V light under the hood in place of the paperclip in that case.

I agree with the ccrm being the likely culprit for the fan not coming on. be sure to get the same letter code ccrm as you now have, since the others are different internally.

5th gear: Reverse has always been a little finicky going into gear. I typically shifted to first/second then into reverse. Kris shifts into fifth then reverse so that may indicate something worn internally or at the shifter.

The check engine light is functioning and did not come on. I tried to run the codes yesterday and was unsuccessful. During the KOEO sequence only a portion of the various fan/sensor cyclings completed then the process stopped. I used both the jumper and OBD 1 reader methods and failed to get a completed test on either try.

For clarity when you refer to the CCRM are you talking about the Integrated Control Module listed on page 151-5 in the Electrical & Vacuum Troubleshooting manual and mounted in the right front of the engine compartment above the radiator? I have a couple of used "M" units but am not certain they are functioning properly. Is there a diagnostic routine for them?

Thanks

 

[sperold]

Integrated Control Relay Assembly = CCRM (another name for the same thing)
I have heard of people taking them to places like Auto Zone and testing them, but I have no experience with that.
When you do the Key on Engine off test, the first thing it does is turn on your fan, so find one that does that. The other big assignment for this module is running your fuel pump and that is fairly easy to verify.

I think some OBD I testers are better than others. Mine is an Equus and is pretty marginal and did not cost much. Borrow another one if you can and hope for a super-duper one that gives you more information. Some can do both OBD I and II, so maybe they are better.

All SHOs are funny about going into reverse, so I don't think your history indicates a divide, where after you did something, things changed.

There is a companion thread on this forum about the shifter removal, and it turns out it is removed from the bottom. I would take a look to ensure it is not unbolted or something silly.

 

[NEp8ntballer]

quick way to test the fan is take a lead off of the battery and another to ground from the connector and see if the fan kicks on. but judging by bumping it making it kick on it's probably a relay or wiring. the gauge has its own feed and another coolant temp sensor should be responsible for providing data to the ECM and kicking the fan on.

 

[SHO1]

Yep, icrm means same part, but ccrm as they are called on the SHO stands for constant control relay module.

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

Okay, all great insights. I will poke around some more later today and see what turns up. Thanks again for all the input!

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

Spent some time today on the overheating issue. Swapped in a salvaged IRCM (CCRM) from a 91+ that we had earlier. Started the car and the cooling fan ran for 10 – 15 seconds or so then shut off. Idled up to normal (approximately) without apparent issue. Started the AC on Automatic and the cooling fan kicked in and held the temp at slightly above normal on the gauge. So far, so good, right?

Decided to see if the trans would pop out of Reverse so I ran over to the high school parking lot to make several reverse passes. Nice day weather wise so I shut off the AC for the trip. Got to the HS parking lot and the temp gauge was a little above normal. Made several passes in reverse without popping out of reverse gear.

Then I noticed that the temp gauge was at “N”. Opened hood, no cooling fan! Switched on AC, fan kicked right on and cooled down engine.

Back to the drawing board…….:/

 

[sperold]

Your IRCM gets its information from one of the two temperature sensors located near your thermostat (other sensor is for the gauge). Your IRCM responds correctly to the inputs from your climate control, but is not so great with the raw temperature data. It sounds like your gauge sensor is operating properly as it reads a little high, which it sounds like it is.
Investigate the sensor for the IRCM (CCRM).

It is nice the transmission does not jump out of reverse. Does it still instantly pop out of 5th?

 

[sperold]

If you have the Vaccum and Electrical Troubleshooting Manual, you probably already know the following information. But I thought I would throw it in anyways for your IRCM troubleshooting:

1. The Engine Coolant Temperature sensor or ECT. This 2-wire sensor measures the coolant temperature and transmits it as a voltage to the EEC-IV module. The ECT is a negative temperature coefficient (NTC) device: its resistance decreases as its temperature increases. The voltage on the sensor's Green/Yellow wire will vary from 4V at 32degF to about 0.3V at 250F. The system is fairly linear, so:

coolant temperature in degrees F = ( volts at sensor - 4.5 ) / -0.0165

If this sensor fails open circuit, EEC will think that the engine is always dead cold, a short circuit fail would indicate severe overheat. The latter failure mode may cause EEC to stop the engine, I haven't gone looking for a software strategy for this. The ECT sensor is the single pin device that's threaded into the coolant manifold near the thermostat housing.

2. The temperature sender for the dashboard gauge. This is a one-wire sender that relays coolant temperature information to the dashboard gauge as a function of current. This sender is also an NTC device. It should read about 75 ohms at 50degF and about 10 ohms at 220F. Like most Ford "gauges", the temp sender/gauge combination is not meant to be an instrument, it is an enhanced idiot light. Under most conditions, with everything working correctly, the temp gauge should run in the middle of the NORMAL range. This equates to about 185F at the thermostat outlet. This sender occasionally fails to a mode that makes the dash gauge read lower then it should. It is located in the coolant manifold to the left of the thermostat housing. This sender has no EEC-IV function or connection. It's part number is part number is F1SZ-10884-A, and the cost is minimal, if you're replacing the thermostat, you should probably replace this as well.

 

[ItsAnAdventure]

Swapped out both sensors this morning. Ran engine in the driveway and fan appeared to be operating normally. I am going to drive around a little later this evening to see how things are in the real world.

UPDATE: After driving around through stop & go along with highway speeds the cooling fan appears to be operating normally. Looks like the culprit was the ECT sensor. I'm going to re install the original IRCM tomorrow just to see if it is okay or not.