Neighbours SHO...

[yyc_tbird_sc]

Hey guys, I'm hoping you can help me out...here's what happened:

My neighbour Robbie was stuck in some snow a while ago after a snow storm. His neighbours came out to give him a hand. The wife jumped in the car, put it in first while Robbie and the husband pushed it out of the snow. I guess the wife had experience driving standard, but I guess she had it pinned. That's when a knock/tick developed....

My father looked at it briefly (he's been a mechanic and heavy duty mechanic for over 30 years and has worked on these things years ago), and he said it was in the top end and wouldn't be too hard to find. I pulled it into the garage tonight, and went to work tearing into it. I've got it down to having the valve covers off and have looked at the valve train, but can't find anything. Now my experience with the over head cam engines is very limited, but nothing looks/feels out of place. The knock/tick does sound to be almost plastic in nature, but I could be off on that...

Aside from the regular maintenance stuff that is going to have to be done....plugs, wires, valve cover seals, intake manifold gaskets, and I'll have to make up a new throttle body gasket as it fell apart when I pulled it off. I'm thinking that maybe the timing belt is on the way out, and the tensioner is jumping around....so maybe that too.

Any thoughts? I'll be posting a quick video of it on youtube shortly in case that helps. Thanks in advance!

Scott

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

Here's the link to the YouTube Video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23wawwolkGA

Thanks again...

 

[TwistedD85]

Driver's side? If so it might be the timing chain tensioner.

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=105998&highlight=Chain+Tensioner

There's a video in the thread you could compare to, the audio is a bit more clear.

 

[93rev2sev]

Sounds like a Timing belt or accessory.

Remove the accessory belts and see if the problem dissapears. If not...you are on your way to checking the timing belt

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

Okay, I've ruled out all of the valve train as there are no spit out shims, no signs of excessive wear, or anything else that would stand out. The cam chains seem like they're in good shape, and the wear pad still looks really good.

I went to pull the cover off the timing belt, and while going to loosen the tensioner to get the serpentine belts off, I broke the tip of a ball-end allen key in the tensioner. Damn thing wouldn't move in either direction....any tips? If not I'll just pull the tensioner off as a unit and soak it in penetrating oil to see if it loosens up.

I've read that people have had a hard time with the butterfly's on the intake manifold, something about some screws coming loose or something, but I have not been able to find any direct threads relating to this....does anyone have a link for a thread that may be useful?

Thanks again guys....

Scott

 

[93rev2sev]

did you loosen the 14mm nut holding the pulley fast to the bracket? You need to.

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

Hmmm...14mm nut, umm yeah, got it today!! LOL. OOPS...

Still nothing wrong. How tight is the timing belt supposed to be? And, does anyone have a link to any online manuals or other good references?

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

So until I can get the key for wheel locks, I can't get the balancer off, and thus I can't the bottom cover to look at the tensioner for the timing belt...maybe tomorrow...

In regards to the chain tensioners for the cams, how much wear is too much? Any chain tensioner I've seen is supposed to be basically flat, but the chain looks like it's grooved into the plastic on front tensioner. The back I can't see as it's upside down. Is there a way to retract the tensioners? or are they a ratcheting style?

Pics...

Also found that the water pump is obviously leaking as there is some buildup below it. However, while looking down past the timing belt, it doesn't look to have fouled up the crank sensor...

Oil in the spark plug bores....normal from what I've read....

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

Anyone? Any ideas?

 

[Schumacher609]

How may miles are on the car? Has a 60k maintenance ever been performed? Either way I would look into doing both and upper and front 60k if you've already gone this far tearing the engine down and because the water pump is leaking/oil in the plug wells.

If the shims are really out of spec could it be causing a valve tap? What do the rest of you think?

-Mike

 

[jonheese]

My guesses, in order of likelihood:

1. Chain tensioner
2. Timing belt tensioner
3. Valve shim out of spec

 

[CWhalenSHO]

I'm no SHO guru like a lot of other guys on here but judging by the wear on the Chain Tensioner's that's where I would start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HflyjA95M-o

I don't think it's the Timing Belt Tensioner. IMHO....though I could be very wrong.

Good Luck!!

 

[CWhalenSHO]

I'm no SHO guru like a lot of other guys on here but judging by the wear on the Chain Tensioners that's where I would start.

Here is a link to the vid I took when I over tightened my Timing Belt Tensioner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HflyjA95M-o

I don't think it's the Timing Belt Tensioner. IMHO....though I could be very wrong.

Good Luck!!

 

[jonheese]

I agree. I'd say 75-85% chance it's one of the chain tensioners, and if so, the other one's probably not far behind.

 

[93rev2sev]

That isn't all that much wear on the tensioner pad. I've definately seen worse.


By the way...how would you know if a bucket is sticking open by looking at them? You need to visually inspect all the spark plugs. They'll tell you a lot more than a visual inspection of the valvetrain.

 

[jonheese]

Yeah, honestly, the only reason why I put a shim issue so low on the list is because I've only heard of it happening twice. Honestly, it is definitely a possibility that I'd check out if I were the OP.

 

[pitaSHO]

If I understand it correctly, the car was running fine until AFTER it was rescued from the snow tomb; then the ticking started. I agree with Rev, the cam chain tensioners look fine. Can you push them down with your finger? If so, then yeah, they may be shot; they're no longer holding tension on the cam chain and it's slapping around. If you can't, they're probably fine. The two other areas that make ticking sounds are rod bearings and TOB's, although TOB's sound more like a chatter and the sound goes away when you push in the clutch. The fact that it started making noise after the incident makes me think it's not in the top, but I am still a young padewan in the way of diagnosing problems.

Chris K.

 

[jonheese]

I kinda just assumed that the onset of the problem was unrelated to the getting unstuck, just a function of the car getting older and parts (eg. chain tensioner(s)) wearing out, and the event was just a red herring in the diagnosis. But you may certainly be right.

It's a little hard to hear the ticking clearly in the video, so I could definitely be way off, but it didn't sound like a rod knock to me.

Scott: Were you able to isolate the general vicinity of the noise (when it was put together and running)? i.e. top end, bottom end, trans side, etc. You said that your dad said it was a top-end noise; did he know that by where the sound was coming from?

 

[yyc_tbird_sc]

I was unable to completely isolate the sound when I pulled it into the garage, but my father had looked at it for a while, and he still claims it's in the top end. The noise started right after the car was revved down from the wife flooring it, while they were getting it unstuck. I did notice that the sound was still there when I was stepping on the clutch, so I don't think it's a TOB.

I made a quick set of shim adjustment tools last night (anything I can do to get to play with my plasma cutter!! LOL), so I'll pull all the shims tonight and check them again. The chain tensioner is tight, I can't push down on it at all, but my worry was the wear of the plastic pad with the chain digging into it.

I did pull the plugs, and there is no sign of abnormal wear, but they did prove that they desperately needed to be changed.

I think I'm going to do something tonight, I've done it so many times with OHV engines while adjusting valve.....I'm going to put the motor back together and run the motor without the valve covers. I know that it'll throw some oil from the cams/chains, but I think it's going to be the best bet to see if there are any problems. I WILL get a vid up for those that are interested.

The biggest thing that sucks is, I don't want to go sticking the owner with a bunch of parts if I can't fix it right. I have told him that I'll be doing a top and front 60K service (it's only got 130,000 km on it), so he's going to be looking at $600 in parts.

 

[jonheese]

I did notice that the sound was still there when I was stepping on the clutch, so I don't think it's a TOB.

Agreed.

The chain tensioner is tight, I can't push down on it at all, but my worry was the wear of the plastic pad with the chain digging into it.

Yeah, it sounds like your chain tensioners are fine. That amount of wear is normal and shouldn't cause the kind of noise you're hearing.

I did pull the plugs, and there is no sign of abnormal wear, but they did prove that they desperately needed to be changed.

Can you post a close-up pic of the spark plugs? Are you familiar with the techniques for "reading" plugs? Are you sure they look "normal" as far as color, erosion, deposits, etc.?

I'm going to put the motor back together and run the motor without the valve covers. I know that it'll throw some oil from the cams/chains, but I think it's going to be the best bet to see if there are any problems. I WILL get a vid up for those that are interested.

That ought to illuminate the problem nicely. Good luck and I await video.