400ft-lbs of torque?

[SHO Dude]

/\/\/\ All right, now maybe this thread can get back on track.

Doug, it may have been lost in the past page, but what fuel pressure were you running with the Accels?? It seems strange to me that those power levels would max out those 48's. If the lines were the problem, upsizing injectors would do little good. Same for the pump.

Any idea on the IAT's or EGT's?

With the stock pressure regulator and a few fuel line modifications, it would hold 40psi and rise to 50psi.

What I found was that AFR rises with backpressure. So with this housing and 18lbs of boost, AFR can't be controlled after 6000rpm when the exhaust is choked off.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I am a little lost as to why this can't be tuned out. The Suby guys have this issue with most IWG setups and fuel isn't an issue, boost creep is. With Scotts small turbo, I didn't have the issue with fuel either, just boost creep. He also has an adjustable FPR. I'd like to play with tuning on this car after a few changes.

 

[SHOspazz92]

Original questions states who thinks this will put out more then 400 lbs at the wheels. I don't! Maybe the motor alone. Unless it of course has the better diff that doesn't have the pin problem. If this has the ungraded diff I'll believe it, if not, it would blow the diff before even reaching the wheels.

Worst post ever.

-Sam

 

[Toolman]

With the stock pressure regulator and a few fuel line modifications, it would hold 40psi and rise to 50psi.

What I found was that AFR rises with backpressure. So with this housing and 18lbs of boost, AFR can't be controlled after 6000rpm when the exhaust is choked off.

Where is the WB02 located? With a remote mount, seems like it would be difficult to locate it in a pressure free zone.

 

[sho_sc]

Where is the WB02 located? With a remote mount, seems like it would be difficult to locate it in a pressure free zone.

Ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner! THe WB02 "MUST" be placed after the turbo or it just don't work right.

 

[Lupo]

With the stock pressure regulator and a few fuel line modifications, it would hold 40psi and rise to 50psi.

What I found was that AFR rises with backpressure. So with this housing and 18lbs of boost, AFR can't be controlled after 6000rpm when the exhaust is choked off.

If you are running up to 18psi of boost, shouldn't the fuel pressure raise to 57-58psi? (Assuming 39psi base relative pressure).

 

[SHO Dude]

No cats on the car, so the WBO2 sensor is stuffed into the tail pipe (for simplicity).

I've run the WBO2 sensor before the turbo with no problems. The O2 sensor doesn't care where it is and backpressure has no effect on AFR.

What does matter is the engine not being able to get air out. With the tight exhaust housing, the backpressure gets so high that the engine simply can't get the air out. If you can't get it out, it can't get in either. This results in a rise in AFR, even though it's got too much fuel. The 60lb'ers are still proll'y overkill, but hey, richer is better in this case.

The fuel pressure does rise. Wile on the dyno, I was less concerned about the actual amount of pressure and more concerned that there was plenty of it.

 

[glxrustang]

A small down pipe also increases turbo lag as well.

As a note, when I turbo'd my mustang (sorry) I put the O2 on the downpipe too. If you look at those Tuner Mags, they all all have O2's after the turbo. Even the kits..

sorry, I just wanted to get in on the longest post ever...

 

[yamahaSHO]

No cats on the car, so the WBO2 sensor is stuffed into the tail pipe (for simplicity).

I've run the WBO2 sensor before the turbo with no problems. The O2 sensor doesn't care where it is and backpressure has no effect on AFR.

What does matter is the engine not being able to get air out. With the tight exhaust housing, the backpressure gets so high that the engine simply can't get the air out. If you can't get it out, it can't get in either. This results in a rise in AFR, even though it's got too much fuel. The 60lb'ers are still proll'y overkill, but hey, richer is better in this case.

The fuel pressure does rise. Wile on the dyno, I was less concerned about the actual amount of pressure and more concerned that there was plenty of it.

TBH, that shouldn't cause the AFR to rise. Flow is being choked, but if tuned correctly, the sensors will see this and correct. You are correct about not getting more air in if you can't get it out, but you're not giving your PCM enough credit... The problem lies elsewhere..

 

[Lupo]

TBH, that shouldn't cause the AFR to rise. Flow is being choked, but if tuned correctly, the sensors will see this and correct. You are correct about not getting more air in if you can't get it out, but you're not giving your PCM enough credit... The problem lies elsewhere..

With every pound of positive manifold pressure, you need to match the fuel pressure.
The ECU always assumes 39psi relative pressure. Relative pressure would be 39 + manifold pressure.
In boost, it would work out to 39 + (manifold psi)
In vacuum it would work out to 39 - (vac inches/2)

So...at idle and 16 inches on vac, 39 relative pressure would be 39 - (16 inches vac/2) = 31psi
At 6psi boost, 39 relative pressure would be 39 + (6psi boost) =45psi

So at 18psi boost, you need to add 18psi of fuel pressure on top of the 39 base pressure, which gives you 57.
If you are only hitting 50psi of fuel pressure at 18psi boost, you are short by 7psi, and the AFR will go lean.
I would blame the fuel lines and/or fuel pump for not keeping up.

 

[gmorrell]

I've run the WBO2 sensor before the turbo with no problems. The O2 sensor doesn't care where it is and backpressure has no effect on AFR.

Not really... Exhaust back pressure can indeed affect the WBO2 readings. Just prior to the turbine inlet, exhaust back pressure can be as high as twice the compressor outlet (boost) pressure, and this can cause an error of 1 point or more in measured AFR, and the further away from stoich, the larger the error.

Klaus at Innovate Motorsports has a pretty good handle on the pressure -vs- AFR error issue, you might want to give him a call.

Innovate Motorsports
15312 Connector Lane
Huntington Beach, CA 92649

TEL: 714-372-5910
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/contact.php

Edit: That's some good lookin' pipes you got there Doug. Nice system, and nicely executed. I think once you get the tuning sorted out, you'll be grenading transaxles.

 

[SHO Dude]

Bump.

 

[Rubix]

^ A bump without video of the car in action or fresh pictures of the car without the wing? Bullplop.

 

[St Louis SHO]

Bump.

For?

 

[93rev2sev]

Questions, comments?

Very nice looking build. One thing I noticed: If you put a little belly pan under there, air pressure at the filter would be quite high.

 

[.RaMpAgE.]

i know this is prolly a stupid question and gonna get a lot of flank but could u tap in to the engine for oil and save ur self a shit load of money not putting in a custom pump and cooler....then pretty much u just need custom piping and a turbo....nice setup by the way

 

[DemonNeno]

Interesting to see how this actually works! But, seriously, that looks like A LOT of piping running everywhere! How low does the charge pipe hang? The remote oiling system is definitely a plus, especially when considering how much line you'd have to run and the potential to damage your motor if one of those lines let loose/got smashed beneath the car.

Did you invest ~$1k in the oiling system by choice or was this something planned out with your customer? Is there anything special about the turbo setup to help it spool up boost so efficently for a remote system? What grade oil are you working through it?

Of course, I have to ask, does this car run on RFT Tires? I kid, I kid!

Very nice work Doug! Very unique!

 

[SHOCarGo]

where the video? or am i lost but with just the pics i would go with remote turbo too


scratch that didnt see there was more then one page, i am a fu** ******** lol never mind

 

[SHO Dude]

Bump, this time with pictures.

I get a call about every week from the owner of the white car. When I pick up the phone, I just hear him giggle. This is a mid-50's Gear Head that likes to go fast in all kinds of stuff. He's had Off Shore boats of all different sizes and types, he's had motorcycles of all different sizes and types, and has raced and crashed about anything you can imagine. But he still can't get over this car. He absolutely loves it.

Now then, on to the next build. It's a '91 Plus that my customer bought from Jacksonville. We did all the maintenance to the stock engine, so we'll see how long we can get it to last. We did the tranny with our killer clutch set and a WaveTrac differential. We did our 12" brake inside the factory slicers and the B&G springs around Koni struts. We also installed a set of our Original Subframe Connectors. We did all the suspension bushings and swaybar bushings, so the car is nice and tight. Once we got there, we installed the turbo in the back. We decided not to go with a separate oiling system because it was such a pain in the **** (and expensive too). Instead, we plumbed engine oil all the way back to the turbo, then scavenge it and pump it back to the engine. It makes the install much easier too. The filtration and cooling are mainly for restriction more than anything else, but add a nice touch and will make the turbo live longer.















So, as you can see, the car is plumbed and runs. It's ready for the plumber to make all the tubing. My guy is Michael Angelo with a CnC Mandrel Tubing Bender. The waste gate will be external and controlled with a SPEC Gauge and Controller. the Blow Off is a Turbonetics unit. Everything will be hidden where you can't see it even if you know it's there. On this one, the pipes will be ceramic coated with a black satin finish.

Here's what the trunk looks like without an ass load of pumps and hoses.



Now, the important thing to note is that I'm having more than one set of piped built. Any takers on the next kit?

 

[Sho Amo]

awesome cant wait to see more of this plus