understeer
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srfdude
SHO Member
I have an interesting page of info, and reactions/reviews from some well-known SHO guys regarding sway bars. I don't have a web site, but I can email it to someone who can post it, if so desired.
Mike
Mike
AutoXSHO
SHO Member
I think Kirk just didn't get enough sleep the day he posted that. It's exactly the opposite of what happens.
A bigger rear bar or smaller front bar will decrease understeer. I wouldn't call the 21/26 combo a "neutral" handler exactly - it's definitely biased towards oversteer.
(BTW, this is the case with any car. Increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front will bias the handling towards oversteer. Any basic suspension book will go into why.)
I chose my swaybars more by word of mouth than anything else but I've been happy. I drive it on the street and it's 100% controllable under all situations. Again, if I had a Quaife, I would want a bigger swaybar combo F/R, but this is as much as the car will tolerate with an open diff and it's STILL not ideal.
My '95 MTX originally came with 21mm front and rear bars and was a pig in the corners, even with Tokicos and Eibachs. It's much more fun now.
(edit) Having three wheels in the air isn't desireable or undesirable - it's just a side effect of having a lot of roll stiffness in the rear combined with a lot of front traction. Any SHO on race tires and a 26mm rear bar will lift its inside tire. Same with VW's, Sentras, and many Civics. Go to an autocross and it will become apparent.
John V
<small>[ September 23, 2002, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: AutoXSHO ]</small>
A bigger rear bar or smaller front bar will decrease understeer. I wouldn't call the 21/26 combo a "neutral" handler exactly - it's definitely biased towards oversteer.
(BTW, this is the case with any car. Increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front will bias the handling towards oversteer. Any basic suspension book will go into why.)
I chose my swaybars more by word of mouth than anything else but I've been happy. I drive it on the street and it's 100% controllable under all situations. Again, if I had a Quaife, I would want a bigger swaybar combo F/R, but this is as much as the car will tolerate with an open diff and it's STILL not ideal.
My '95 MTX originally came with 21mm front and rear bars and was a pig in the corners, even with Tokicos and Eibachs. It's much more fun now.
(edit) Having three wheels in the air isn't desireable or undesirable - it's just a side effect of having a lot of roll stiffness in the rear combined with a lot of front traction. Any SHO on race tires and a 26mm rear bar will lift its inside tire. Same with VW's, Sentras, and many Civics. Go to an autocross and it will become apparent.
John V
<small>[ September 23, 2002, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: AutoXSHO ]</small>
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
ME go to an autocross? um ok my next one would be like my 50th or so. Maybe im just new to it thumbs_u
But since I have had all three gens and have played with swaybars on all of them and seem somwhow to manage to get to the top of my class all the time - maybe im not new. remember in a FWD you do everything oppsite than a RWD. a 21 is just way to small, its like a peice of wire and will cause the already loose as a goose Gen 2 to slide all over the track (pushing its way to kingdome come)and destroying the tires, John you have to upgrade that front bar a 21 is killing you for sure. try it.. if you want a better mod than that go to a gen 3 bar with welded collars so the bar cant slide either.
But since I have had all three gens and have played with swaybars on all of them and seem somwhow to manage to get to the top of my class all the time - maybe im not new. remember in a FWD you do everything oppsite than a RWD. a 21 is just way to small, its like a peice of wire and will cause the already loose as a goose Gen 2 to slide all over the track (pushing its way to kingdome come)and destroying the tires, John you have to upgrade that front bar a 21 is killing you for sure. try it.. if you want a better mod than that go to a gen 3 bar with welded collars so the bar cant slide either.
AutoXSHO
SHO Member
Kirk, I'm sorry, that's just not right. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what you're saying is not correct.
Regardless of which wheels are driving, the balance of the car is going to have to do primarily with two things. One, the relative roll stiffnesses of the front and back of the car and two the crossweights of the car.
Increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front will ALWAYS balance the car towards oversteer, and vice versa. Similarly, tire pressure adjustments on a FWD car have the same response effect as on a RWD or AWD car, though how much differs from car to car. I'm not sure where you got the idea that driving the front wheels as opposed to the rears reverses the laws of physics.
Why do you think they limit stock class swaybar modifications to the front bar only? Why do you think most FWD stock class autocrossers disconnect the front bar entirely? The reason is to get the car to rotate any way they can. Since they can't bolt on a big rear bar, they have to disconnect the front one (or make it smaller).
I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but this is basic, basic suspension setup stuff here. Just look in ANY BOOK or talk to ANY seasoned autocrosser. Even easier, ask the SHOTech guys. We've discussed the different swaybar combos and their relative merits and drawbacks with regard to autocross/road course, etc.
John V
Regardless of which wheels are driving, the balance of the car is going to have to do primarily with two things. One, the relative roll stiffnesses of the front and back of the car and two the crossweights of the car.
Increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front will ALWAYS balance the car towards oversteer, and vice versa. Similarly, tire pressure adjustments on a FWD car have the same response effect as on a RWD or AWD car, though how much differs from car to car. I'm not sure where you got the idea that driving the front wheels as opposed to the rears reverses the laws of physics.
Why do you think they limit stock class swaybar modifications to the front bar only? Why do you think most FWD stock class autocrossers disconnect the front bar entirely? The reason is to get the car to rotate any way they can. Since they can't bolt on a big rear bar, they have to disconnect the front one (or make it smaller).
I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but this is basic, basic suspension setup stuff here. Just look in ANY BOOK or talk to ANY seasoned autocrosser. Even easier, ask the SHOTech guys. We've discussed the different swaybar combos and their relative merits and drawbacks with regard to autocross/road course, etc.
John V
DeaconBlue
SHO Member
Kirk, you saw my car at the convention. It's a '95 MTX with on open differential plus these suspension mods; Koni/Eibach combo, weld-in SFC, front and rear STB, 20.6mm/26mm combo with HD rear link ends, poly SB mount bushings, poly strut rod bushings, police SFB, 17 x 8.0 rims with 245/45-17 tires. The darn thing had scary over steer tendencies. This past Saturday I swapped out the 20.6mm FSB for a 22mm unit (also with poly mount bushings). What a big difference! The car is now very well balanced and neutral. The front and rear roll rates are now almost perfectly matched. The car is stable at high speed and perfectly benign, plus it is much faster through the corners and much easy to drive fast. I have first hand experience in saying that for a Gen II MTX, 20.6mm/26mm SB combo is loose, with oversteer tendencies. The 22mm/26mm SB combo is neutral and fast. While the 24mm/26mm SB combo is understeer city, but safe for the non experienced SHO driver (read your wife daughter, son or mother). The nose heavy ATX's seem to like the 24mm/26mm SB combo best.
The addition of a Quaife tends to skew this a bit and I am not 100% sure about the slightly lighter weight Gen I's or the much stiffer Gen III's like the best.
The addition of a Quaife tends to skew this a bit and I am not 100% sure about the slightly lighter weight Gen I's or the much stiffer Gen III's like the best.
drivinhard
New Member
I put in the 22 up front on the 89 last week, ran summit this past Fri. Car was more neutral, could run closer tire pressures from front to rear, but you loose some steering feel and turn in sharpness with the smaller bar. Car isn't as direct with the smaller bar, but I guess that's the price you pay.
Otherwise all was good, the little "****" in turn 9 usually would pick up the inside wheel. The 22mm bar helped keep the power down all the way through that corner.
And the 22 has gotta be what, 1 lb lighter than the 24?
Otherwise all was good, the little "****" in turn 9 usually would pick up the inside wheel. The 22mm bar helped keep the power down all the way through that corner.
And the 22 has gotta be what, 1 lb lighter than the 24?
ThrillSHO
New Member
I have to agree with John on the effects of swaybar sizes on the front and back. It's really not debatable.
I agree with Mike about considering spring and shock rates. Suspension tuning is at best a compromise. You just have to settle at what feels best to you(and hopefully turns in the fastest times). This is best done on a skidpad to find the best swaybar combo, then in the slaloms to find the best shock settings.
I autocrossed yesterday at an airport. It was a very fast, well flowing course. After a couple of runs and some shock adjustments the car was very neutral in one part of the course, but very loose on another section. Last Thursday, I ran at a night event in a large parking lot. The course was very tight and relatively low speed. Adjusting shock rates and tire pressures were not enough to get all the understeer out of the car. I needed less front bar or more rear bar. Hopefully, I'll have an adjustable one soon.
I agree with Mike about considering spring and shock rates. Suspension tuning is at best a compromise. You just have to settle at what feels best to you(and hopefully turns in the fastest times). This is best done on a skidpad to find the best swaybar combo, then in the slaloms to find the best shock settings.
I autocrossed yesterday at an airport. It was a very fast, well flowing course. After a couple of runs and some shock adjustments the car was very neutral in one part of the course, but very loose on another section. Last Thursday, I ran at a night event in a large parking lot. The course was very tight and relatively low speed. Adjusting shock rates and tire pressures were not enough to get all the understeer out of the car. I needed less front bar or more rear bar. Hopefully, I'll have an adjustable one soon.
noSHO
New Member
I'm interested in the fact that Kirk is basically arguing with John about how John's own car drives, haha. I almost think putting in a 28mm rear ASB made more of a difference in handling than the Konis and Intrax springs did. Relatively speaking of course...the CHARACTER of the car changed with the sway bar. All the springs and struts did was let me take turns way faster. Cool, yes, but a car that understeers (or oversteers, whatever) at a lower speed will still do so at a higher speed.
Dave Kegel
New Member
This should be a dead horse by now but I'll chime in. A RWD car and a FWD car both react the same way to sway bars. That is, changing to a larger front bar increases understeer, as does going to a smaller rear bar. Maybe what some of you are thinking of is that on a RWD car the front sway bar is almost always larger than the rear one. It's the opposite on a FWD car.
Dave Kegel
Dave Kegel
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
Fellas this went way off track. Read how it was posted and answers this.
On a basically stock Gen 2 (eibach and Tokikos)what would be the best combo. Not with all Poly and other stuff done to car to make it handle better. John your car is one of the most furthest away from stock( yes I seen your car, was under your car and was even inside it). Everything you have done has taken away the need for the 24mm bar. Mark you dont even need sway bars so I wont adress you (in a way im still thanking the rain gods )
Before the SFC's came out and everybody went to poly and the Al and Delrin bushings were just being known, the 24/26 combo was the best out there. still about 75% of SHOS have to be considered in stock trim when answering questions.
But just so all of you know, if you are doing a 22mm front bar try to locate a Gen 3 bar, it has collors on the inside of the bushings that prevent the bar from sliding around and keeps it stationary through the twisties. the 24 I just installed (rubber bushings (ONLY)) DOUBLE DAM FORD.. have them welded on now like the Gen 3 has stock and WOW is all I can stay, turn the wheel and the car goes.
And if you are thinking about (john you will like this) going with Al subframe but hear about harshness and a few other rumors that are blown WAY out of proportion - the Gen 3 rears rubber and poly construction will fit the gen 2 front and rear. Now you get the same 3" contact point as the AL or delrin, with 2 "titts" that will dig into your frame to keep stationary and made from Rubber and poly to keep vibrations down to NONE. Cheap and easy mod..
Psst. John and Mark you think our brakes help stop us from sliding through the corners too wink
Night fellas
<small>[ September 23, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: SHODWN ]</small>
On a basically stock Gen 2 (eibach and Tokikos)what would be the best combo. Not with all Poly and other stuff done to car to make it handle better. John your car is one of the most furthest away from stock( yes I seen your car, was under your car and was even inside it). Everything you have done has taken away the need for the 24mm bar. Mark you dont even need sway bars so I wont adress you
(in a way im still thanking the rain gods ) Before the SFC's came out and everybody went to poly and the Al and Delrin bushings were just being known, the 24/26 combo was the best out there. still about 75% of SHOS have to be considered in stock trim when answering questions.
But just so all of you know, if you are doing a 22mm front bar try to locate a Gen 3 bar, it has collors on the inside of the bushings that prevent the bar from sliding around and keeps it stationary through the twisties. the 24 I just installed (rubber bushings (ONLY)) DOUBLE DAM FORD.. have them welded on now like the Gen 3 has stock and WOW is all I can stay, turn the wheel and the car goes.
And if you are thinking about (john you will like this) going with Al subframe but hear about harshness and a few other rumors that are blown WAY out of proportion - the Gen 3 rears rubber and poly construction will fit the gen 2 front and rear. Now you get the same 3" contact point as the AL or delrin, with 2 "titts" that will dig into your frame to keep stationary and made from Rubber and poly to keep vibrations down to NONE. Cheap and easy mod..
Psst. John and Mark you think our brakes help stop us from sliding through the corners too wink
Night fellas
<small>[ September 23, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: SHODWN ]</small>
AutoXSHO
SHO Member
That's all well and good. I just didn't want any less experienced people being confused into thinking that their FWD car is going to react to suspension changes in the opposite manner to a RWD car. It's never good to confuse people who are trying to learn.
John V
John V
DeaconBlue
SHO Member
Gen III rear SFB's in a Gen II front and rear, hmmmm...
Are they better than the Gen II police units ?
Are they better than the Gen II police units ?
SHO5
ADDICTED
i have a 92 SHO . I figure it has the 24/23 setup. I was wondering if i should got with the 24/26 or the 24/28. Some people say that the 24/26 get the best balance and others say the 24/28 is the best balance. Which one is true and what one should i get.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
IMHO yes they are, even the Police units have a pedastal type connection to the car using the same type of 1" washer connection. The Gen 3 uses a 3" flat plate, more contact = less movement.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
I only know of one person going to such a big rear swaybar, his car was tottaled last year.
Cause: too much oversteer, underexpirence, and bad road conditions.
NOTE** not to start it up but he left his factory 22mm bar in when doing the 28mm causing over steer on every corner.
Cause: too much oversteer, underexpirence, and bad road conditions.
NOTE** not to start it up but he left his factory 22mm bar in when doing the 28mm causing over steer on every corner.
AutoXSHO
SHO Member
28/22 has a ratio of 1.27, biased front to rear. It has been shown that a MTX SHO is well balanced (neutral) with a swaybar ratio of about 1.18, or 26/22.
FWIW, the 26/20.6mm combo is 1.26 wink .
I never said the 26/20.6 was the safest or the best for the street. It's certainly not. It also will feel a little wallowy in corners because of the lack of roll control. I'm sure the 26/24 and 26/22 setups FEEL better on the street.
But for autocross, where you have to get the big pig of a car that a SHO is to rotate... you need that oversteer tendency.
John V
FWIW, the 26/20.6mm combo is 1.26 wink .
I never said the 26/20.6 was the safest or the best for the street. It's certainly not. It also will feel a little wallowy in corners because of the lack of roll control. I'm sure the 26/24 and 26/22 setups FEEL better on the street.
But for autocross, where you have to get the big pig of a car that a SHO is to rotate... you need that oversteer tendency.
John V
drivinhard
New Member
There is no magic bar combo, every application will be different. A small tight course you want some good rotation. On a faster high speed course, you want some stability.
Throw in tire selection, pressures, a 3200 lb 89 vs a 3500 lb ATX gen2, springs, struts, bushing differences, etc. Every car will be different. Just gotta find what works for you.
I got a 24, a 22, and a 20.6 all w/ poly bushings hanging in the garage. Just like a selection of sockets, I got the right one for the right job wink
PS testing now what tends to hook up the front end better at the strip...
Throw in tire selection, pressures, a 3200 lb 89 vs a 3500 lb ATX gen2, springs, struts, bushing differences, etc. Every car will be different. Just gotta find what works for you.
I got a 24, a 22, and a 20.6 all w/ poly bushings hanging in the garage. Just like a selection of sockets, I got the right one for the right job wink
PS testing now what tends to hook up the front end better at the strip...
Emerald94
SHO Member
Mark, I read somewhere, a long time ago, that SAAB wasn't using front sway bars on their cars to help with traction (900 series I believe). Does this make sense to you?
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