Tweecer idle problems

[tauruswithheart]

Ive been tinkering with my tweecer and still cant get my idle right.......My mods are bbb's, pp, udp, prom maf, y-pipe, exhaust, cai....for time being and want to get the most out of my n/a set up before i turbo.....i followed axiantors posts and they were very informative although i still feel im doing something wrong....i set up my stabilized and base fuel tables to 13.1 and disables adaptive control and multiplier....i reset my computer memory by the brake method before i loaded the tune.....after a while the car would idle eradically from 700 to 1200 rpm at stops......i loaded the pro-m 24lb in the maf transfer btw......i logged my 10 minute ride and the entire time it read WOT no matter what even at idle...tps maybe? i waited patiently in my other thread and no response...i can really use your guys help....

 

[hawkeye18]

if the TPS is really reading WOT all the time, then your CE light will come on. Therefore, something is messed up in the tweecer. Or maybe not, but that's what it sounds like to me. Have you checked the IAC? if it's bad or plugged it will cause a messed up idle.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Idle tuning is probably one of the most time-consuming parts of tuning. WOT is really easy in comparison.

I've found TPS volt logging to be a little erratic in CalCon.

I bet your MAF curve down low is probably way off, even with the Pro-M MAF file. You can command 13.1:1 all day long, but if the MAF isn't right, you're just ******* in the wind. I had a car on the dyno Tuesday that was commanding a 12.6:1 with an actual of 15.6:1 (another Pro-M *************). You could also try running your logfiles through EEC Analyzer, but personally my preference is to just do it on the dyno first and then fine-tune it later.

Since the Pro-M is supposed to mimic a stock MAF, I'd start by just trying to use the stock MAF xfer function instead and see if that helps.

 

[Axianator]

Chris is correct regarding the Pro-M MAF. Unless otherwise specified on the MAF itself or through a matching flow sheet, you should be using the factory 55mm MAF transfer in your calibration file for all SHO-compatible Pro-M MAFs "with 24lb injectors".

Since the initial MAF tuning methods that you referenced will vary depending on computer strategy (e.g. X2J on the MTX or D4U1 on the ATX), you need to make sure you utilizing the correct method for your computer. I assume you're using the X2J on an MTX?

I'm also curious - what part of CalCon is telling you that you're always at WOT?

 

[tauruswithheart]

i am using the x2j strategy and started my tuning from josh's x2j calibration file. i am seeing wot in throttle state and also the car never once went into closed loop....... and by the way is my timing advance supposed to be so erradic

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[Phoenix]

In the tweecer manual , it said that WOT and cold engine = open loop , while cruising = closed loop.

That is what I understood from it. Maybe someone more experianced then me could correct me.

 

[Power Surge]

:corn: Ahhhhhh.... I love watching people do self tuning....

 

[yamahaSHO]

What do you mean by you timing advance being erratic? When is it doing this. During on-off throttle cruise, it will jump around quite a bit.

OL is when you're cruising and even idle when warm. The car will do the learning here, then apply KAM's to CL as well. If you have CL tuned well, OL falls into place.

Tuning the idle is a little different, however, with you mods, I don't see why you're having idle problems. I had a highly modded NA SHO before boose, with the TwEECer, I didn't have idle problems. Now I have a not so nice idle, but I can't do anything with that until I get the PT driving down. I don't go the route of setting all the AFR's at 13:1 and turn off adaptive. I'm running a seperate voltage line into my DataQ to accurately data log voltage (VBAT not supported for the SHO) so that I can get my offset put together. With my injectors, I ran out of low slope room to tune with the stock offset.

I believe I am a little more experienced than most and have played with the TwEECer for the last 3-4 years. I may do things a little different, but there is more than one way to go about tuning.

As it has been stated, unless you have a printed out MAF curve for a specific MAF, use the stock curve. I would personally stay away from the Pro-M and jump to the Lightning 80mm if you're looking to boost. I had a Pro-M long ago and it was nothing special.

Have you tried opening another stock binary, then applied all your changes from scratch? I have found that some files become corrupt over time and you need to start from scratch. You can manually put in numbers, or if you're to the point like me where there is a lot of numbers to change, you can import number in certain sections using Cal Edit.

These corrupt files can command 29:1 AFR's, show WOT, and give all sorts of erratic number readouts. It is also a VERY good idea (not trying to say anything) to make sure there are no mechanical problems. Trying to tune with a problems is a never ending circle. I've done this one other SHO's and I feel like I'm throwing my time away.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

You're using an old version of CalCon and you're not even logging MAF volts.

 

[yamahaSHO]

You're using an old version of CalCon and you're not even logging MAF volts.

You don't have to log load to read whether or not the EEC is in OL or CL. Although you can only log 16 parameters, you're computer still functions with all of them.

Yes, you are using an old version of Cal Con. Go to Josh's site and get all the updates. There is about 6 or 7 of them, IIRC.

Don't worry about loggin VBAT as it is not supported. You do want to log MAF volts (not flow as it is derived from voltage anyway) and load %. Some of what you data log can change depending on what you're trying to tune. Another good thing to do with a new tune from scratch that I explained above is to rewrite the payload at the same time.

 

[tauruswithheart]

i started from scratch 3 times with the same results....i checked my codes again to see if there is anything no....(the car has had around 300 miles since last reset)....but i guess thats normal......i think my idle problem does have something to do with the maf transfer i will try the stock maf curve........on antoher note....so me being in OL all the time is normal? im going to switch out my tps and clean my idle air....although the tps volts run so smoothly...what exactly determines the throttle state? btw i was logging maf volts on my other payload this was just a snap shot of an old log to show where im seeing WOT cuz yamahasho asked

 

[Power Surge]

i started from scratch 3 times with the same results....i checked my codes again to see if there is anything no....(the car has had around 300 miles since last reset)... by erradic advance i mean some times it jumps all over the place during partial throttle....but i guess thats normal......i think my idle problem does have something to do with the maf transfer i will try the stock maf curve........on antoher note....so me being in OL all the time is normal? im going to switch out my tps and clean my idle air....although the tps volts run so smoothly...what exactly determines the throttle state?

Much as I dislike self tuning related things, I will help you out here...

Sounds like your x-fer is not right. If you are using a "calibrated" MAF, then you should start with keeping the stock x-fer, injector slopes, and displacement. If you are changing any of that, you are throwing everything out of whack.

If the MAF x-fer is off and the car is too rich, it will usually idle surge. If it's too lean, it will ususally die.

If the x-fer is off so far that the PCM can't correct it will force OL.

 

[Axianator]

i am seeing wot in throttle state

I would check the items that Jason mentioned above, ensuring that you:

- use the latest software files listed on Josh's TwEECer page,
- download the latest TwEECer software release from the TwEECer website,
- are using the correct factory breakpoint values in your calbriation.

If needed, you can use one of Josh's blower files to verify that you are using the correct factory breakpoint values.

what exactly determines the throttle state?

On the X2J calibration, throttle state (closed, part or wide open) is determined by the throttle breakpoint parameters that you see listed on the Scalars tab in CalEdit.

and by the way is my timing advance supposed to be so erradic

As Jason noted above, it is normal to see high spark advance values at low-load conditions, such as part throttle cruise and and closed throttle deceleration. For various reasons, it is also normal to see momentary data spikes when data logging with a TwEECer.

and also the car never once went into closed loop.......

so me being in OL all the time is normal?

Assuming proper operation and calibration, it is not normal to constantly see open loop on car with a warm engine. If your coolant temperature (as indicated by the ECT sensor) has reached a stabilized point over 160 DegF, then you should be seeing closed loop at warm idle and light part throttle cruise with the X2J calibration. Only when you are at low coolant temperatures (like at cold startup), medium or high throttle positions, high engine loads (above 80%), and/or under certain high-speed deceleration conditions (referred to as Decel Fuel Shut-Off, or DFSO) should you see open loop on the X2J. Commanding an AFR richer than 13:1 in the active fuel table will also trigger an open loop condition on the X2J, an oddity which is not commonly shared with most other EEC calibrations.

i think my idle problem does have something to do with the maf transfer i will try the stock maf curve........

In case it's in question, your MAF transfer function has EVERYTHING to do with your idle quality and behavior.

In the tweecer manual , it said that WOT and cold engine = open loop , while cruising = closed loop.

On a simplistic level, that is correct. However, there are many factors that affect loop state on the Ford EEC, factors that will all be explained and reviewed in my upcoming EEC tuning book.

You don't have to log load to read whether or not the EEC is in OL or CL.

Yep. One can view the EEC's current loop state in CalCon simply by selecting the "Loop State" register when they are building their payload file in CalEdit. It should be noted that as of this posting, the Loop State register is only available on the X2J calibration. I am still working with Mike to get this one last flag added to the D4U1 register listing.

CL is when you're cruising and even idle when warm. The car will do the learning here, then apply KAM's to OL as well. If you have CL tuned well, OL falls into place.

I corrected your statement for you, Jason.

(VBAT not supported for the SHO)

Don't worry about loggin VBAT as it is not supported.

Data logging support for battery voltage (VBAT) on both V6 SHO calibrations should work correctly, even with the latest CalCon software update. If CalCon is not displaying the proper VBAT values for the X2J calibration (as you noted to me in your email), then I'll need to add that register to my list of CalCon fixes for Mike.

Have you tried logging VBAT on another MTX SHO to rule out a problem wtih your specific car?

:corn: Ahhhhhh.... I love watching people do self tuning....

Much as I dislike self tuning related things, I will help you out here...

With all due respect, no one here is forcing you to post such comments.

If it bothers you to post in threads like this, then please do not post at all.

If the x-fer is off so far that the PCM can't correct it will force OL.

It should be noted that on most calibrations (including all '89-'95 V6 SHO calibrations), the EEC will also store an appropriate adaptive out-of-range DTC and trip the CEL whenever adaptive learning has exceeded it's corrective bounds.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I corrected your statement for you, Jason.

Good call, but you knew what I meant. Maybe I shouldn't abbreviate, it confuses me

Data logging support for battery voltage (VBAT) on both V6 SHO calibrations should work correctly, even with the latest CalCon software update. If CalCon is not displaying the proper VBAT values for the X2J calibration (as you noted to me in your email), then I'll need to add that register to my list of CalCon fixes for Mike.

Have you tried logging VBAT on another MTX SHO to rule out a problem wtih your specific car?

Yes, I have tried it on Scott's car. I e-mailed Josh and he specifically told me it wasn't supported. He also told me that he's tried to get it to work in the past and still is, however, he also told me not to hold my breath.

 

[Axianator]

Yes, I have tried it on Scott's car. I e-mailed Josh and he specifically told me it wasn't supported. He also told me that he's tried to get it to work in the past and still is, however, he also told me not to hold my breath.

I guess I've been spending too much time with the D4U1.

I'll add VBAT for the X2J onto my list of fixes for Mike.

 

[sho_sc]

I guess I've been spending too much time with the D4U1.

I'll add VBAT for the X2J onto my list of fixes for Mike.

and that would help a great deal in figuring out injector offset (and the lower slope curve indirectly).

 

[tauruswithheart]

Ok so i know where to start from as far as fixing my problem...Now, as far as my N/A mods (everything but cams) should i be commanding 13.1 across the board base and stabilized? Then datalog my ride and run it through eec analyzer and see what kind of better maf curve it gives me? Is that the best way to get more power from my set up..?
To be honest aside from the idle problem (on my behalf) the car seemed to run way stronger when i followed Axianators steps. Im just wondering if thats the only thing i can do for now.......till boost.

Thanks for all your help guys...

 

[yamahaSHO]

and that would help a great deal in figuring out injector offset (and the lower slope curve indirectly).

That's exactly where I'm at. I keep working backwards at the moment, so I just stopped tuning. I don't suspect it'll be fixed anytime soon, so I've got two 10k ohm resistors that I'll use to step the voltage down by half when I run my own voltage line to the DataQ, then I'll modify a file in the TwEECer to multiply the reading by two.

This has been annoying me greatly. I can't tune the offset well without the voltage reading.

 

[SeanMc]

Adam, I'll be calling you next week .

 

[tauruswithheart]

OK i spent a while today starting from scrath once agian.....what i found out is the stock maf curve and variables taken directly from josh's x2j calibration file( by hiting save maf) does not work with the pro-m...the car wouldnt idle and smoked and died..i tried twice and both times failure...then i swapped out the pro-m with a stock maf to see if the car would start and it did... idled smooth as can be with the stock maf.....I then remembered that a while back i read this thread that pro m maf s are calibrated for 19lb injectors NOT 24lb for some reason so i just loaded the prom19.maf in the maf transfer and put the prom back in and bwam.... idles great, pulls harder than ever...especially 5500 rpms and up......im guessing that since the stock tune is calibrated for a ford unit it will only work right with ford units ie lightning 80mm,90mm, lincoln, and c&l withh 55mm stock electronics... i dont know why else it would do that....i even loaded the prom24.maf again to see if it would go back to a wavy idle and it did....