...TRY to beat my sub system ;)

[SHO92]

Jason... if speakers are current driven devices, and I'm not saying they aren't since I don't know myself, why are speakers and amplifiers rated with watts(power), instead of amps(current)?

<small>[ June 29, 2003, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: SHO92 ]</small>

 

[yamahaSHO]

SHO92:
Jason... if speakers are current driven devices, and I'm not saying they aren't since I don't know myself, why are speakers and amplifiers rated with watts(power), instead of amps(current)?

Because thats how they sell them... Watts(Power) =Amperes x Voltage. 2 companies can sell an amp that rate at 1200 watts of power... Which one is better(power wise)?? One is 12v x 100amps = 1200watts, the other could be rated at 14.4v x 83.3amps = 1200watts. The one with the most current is what is going to move your subs the best.

If you need me to explain better, LMK. I will have to dig deeper into my noggin and maybe pull out some notes. It has been a while since I have really been knee deep in this stuff.

 

[kaoticSHO]

Wow, show some respect to Dave. He worked/friends/designed with the legendary Bob Carver. You most likely don't have a clue who that is as you are very young, at the very least an audio guru. hail

Both your 161 and my 163 are nothing compared to what happened recently as "Team Bald" has the SPL record now with an outstanding 178.9. They weren't running stock, either.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Jason, I know who Bob Carver is... I am not too young to know who that is thumb

I got out of the SPL faze along time ago. Now I just like a clean sound.

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: yamahaSHO ]</small>

 

[kaoticSHO]

You should still show him respect.

I also am not in the SPL craze anymore and have been doing SQ way before that and after. I started putting together SQ stereos back in 1977. One listen in some of my cars can attest to that.

What kind of SQ system are you running now? You can go to my picturetrail account to see what I will be running. Will you make it to the Convention? I would very much like to meet you.

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: kaoticSHO ]</small>

 

[yamahaSHO]

kaoticSHO:
You should still show him respect.

I also am not in the SPL craze anymore and have been doing SQ way before that and after. I started putting together SQ stereos back in 1977. One listen in some of my cars can attest to that.

What kind of SQ system are you running now? You can go to my picturetrail account to see what I will be running. Will you make it to the Convention? I would very much like to meet you.

Sorry, I don't mean to be an ass.

As far as the my set up, I have not completed it yet. Not sure what I am doing. All I have is a head unit. I will have to take a look at yours, I love to see what others are doing.

I won't be able to make it to the convention. I am currently on a military assignment and my SHO is sitting in Phoenix, Arizona. I would like to meet you too Jason. I remember when you called me at work to share your experiences with the SS valve springs. We ended up talking for hours. thumb

 

[schoobydooby]

You guys wanna see how speaker and amplifiers work. Check out www.howstuffworks.com. Really awesome site that is full of information for just about everything you can think of.

 

[yamahaSHO]

schoobydooby:
You guys wanna see how speaker and amplifiers work. Check out www.howstuffworks.com. Really awesome site that is full of information for just about everything you can think of.

Yeah, I am trained in that field... I went through lots of school for this stuff. But I do look at that sight every now and again for a refresher.

 

[Dave Ladely]

Like I said before, a fellow, his name was Jay, did have a Phase Linear 700 on an inverter in his car, a Honda Civic, back around 1980. Worked very well for a long time.
I have a Heart Interface 2500 watt inverter, so I will soon hook it up in my boat, a 25' Cobalt, and try a Sunfire multichannel home amp with it, using either a Pioneer or a Sony head unit. Actually a home preamp/tuner would probably work well in a boat on the inverter, but not a car as 1. too big a size for dash, 2, not as vibration and shock resistant as a good amp.
Also, as far as speaker current, the volts get up there pretty good when the speakers are driven with lots of power, just do the math. Hint: much higher than 12 volts. If there was 1000 watts at the speaker, there would be about 83 amps at 12 volts, a bit less at 14 volts. Still a LOT of amps, 83 amps would fry even 12 guage wire, so you know that the amps are a lot less than that, so the voltage must be a lot higher than 12 or 14 volts. Ergo, speakers are volt/current devices.

 

[Dave Ladely]

By the way, I doubt we would be discussing this topic had not I forcefully convinced Bob Carver to built the first superamp, which was later copied and then the philosophy wound up in cars.
Interestingly enough, I had wanted first to built a powerful car amp, in 1961, but it was technologically almost impossible then. I did wind up using one tube car amp per speaker,with 4 small home type speakers (no car good car speakers available in 1962), which was a lot better than one stock amp and one bad speaker.
I am an extremist, both in power (6000 watts at home in a room 12' by 15') and in quality sound, but I must say that the decibel drags are obviously ego driven and out of control. Childish philosophy, really, and kinda embarrasing for me to even see, if you really consider its fundamental reasoning without rationalization, besides being extremely self indulgent. I start thinking of writing checks to worthy charities at the thought. Where are our human values and sanity?
As long as there is PLENTY of power to drive the system to listening levels somewhat greater than would be normally listened at, with essentially no distortion, then quality should be the goal, and that is challenging enough in a car.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Dave Ladely:
Like I said before, a fellow, his name was Jay, did have a Phase Linear 700 on an inverter in his car, a Honda Civic, back around 1980. Worked very well for a long time.
I have a Heart Interface 2500 watt inverter, so I will soon hook it up in my boat, a 25' Cobalt, and try a Sunfire multichannel home amp with it, using either a Pioneer or a Sony head unit. Actually a home preamp/tuner would probably work well in a boat on the inverter, but not a car as 1. too big a size for dash, 2, not as vibration and shock resistant as a good amp.
Also, as far as speaker current, the volts get up there pretty good when the speakers are driven with lots of power, just do the math. Hint: much higher than 12 volts. If there was 1000 watts at the speaker, there would be about 83 amps at 12 volts, a bit less at 14 volts. Still a LOT of amps, 83 amps would fry even 12 guage wire, so you know that the amps are a lot less than that, so the voltage must be a lot higher than 12 or 14 volts. Ergo, speakers are volt/current devices.

Speakers are current driven devices... I was giving an example of the voltage that was being fed from a car battery. Wether or not the amp gets its wattage rating mostly from the amps or volts... the cone/coils are being moved by the current.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Dave Ladely:
By the way, I doubt we would be discussing this topic had not I forcefully convinced Bob Carver to built the first superamp, which was later copied and then the philosophy wound up in cars.
Interestingly enough, I had wanted first to built a powerful car amp, in 1961, but it was technologically almost impossible then. I did wind up using one tube car amp per speaker,with 4 small home type speakers (no car good car speakers available in 1962), which was a lot better than one stock amp and one bad speaker.
I am an extremist, both in power (6000 watts at home in a room 12' by 15') and in quality sound, but I must say that the decibel drags are obviously ego driven and out of control. Childish philosophy, really, and kinda embarrasing for me to even see, if you really consider its fundamental reasoning without rationalization, besides being extremely self indulgent. I start thinking of writing checks to worthy charities at the thought. Where are our human values and sanity?
As long as there is PLENTY of power to drive the system to listening levels somewhat greater than would be normally listened at, with essentially no distortion, then quality should be the goal, and that is challenging enough in a car.

I am not into the dB drags either. When I built my first system, I had no idea it was going to bump so hard. I was young and most of the 2 12" sub set ups that I had heard at the time, sucked. When I designed mine, I went with lots of power and a properly tuned and well built enclosure. It sounded great, but it could literally make you ears bleed. Did I mention it also sounded great too? wink

As a young kid, I liked to bump it loud and pull up to some one shaking thier car. Now I am into sound quality and totally share you point of view on that. I don't use as much power in my home system, but I don't need to. My parents Klipsch La Scala speaker only handle 100watts rms and 400 peak, but they are very efficient and good at turning power into sound.

<small>[ July 04, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: yamahaSHO ]</small>

 

[Dave Ladely]

Klipsch are designed for corners for the most part, which kinda acts like a megaphone, hence their efficiency. Bass is not their stong suit, due to the length of horn necessary to reproduce low frequencies, so a good subwoofer would help the sound. It should be crossed over a bit higher than with other designs, since corner speakers generally have a drop off of bass at a higher frequency. Horns tend to beam a bit too. Cars don't lend themselves to horns. My home speakers are very inefficient, but inefficiency does NOT have a negative implication in sound, in fact, inefficient speakers usually trade efficiency for smoothness.
Its impossible to get a car system to sound like a really good home system, but some are very impressive.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Dave Ladely:
Klipsch are designed for corners for the most part, which kinda acts like a megaphone, hence their efficiency. Bass is not their stong suit, due to the length of horn necessary to reproduce low frequencies, so a good subwoofer would help the sound. It should be crossed over a bit higher than with other designs, since corner speakers generally have a drop off of bass at a higher frequency. Horns tend to beam a bit too. Cars don't lend themselves to horns. My home speakers are very inefficient, but inefficiency does NOT have a negative implication in sound, in fact, inefficient speakers usually trade efficiency for smoothness.
Its impossible to get a car system to sound like a really good home system, but some are very impressive.

Well... the Klipschhorns are the corner placed speakers(Heritage Series speakers are really the only "corner placed" speakers they make). The La Scalas are not really made for the corners. As far as effeciency, I really mean they produce louder sound at a certain volume setting compared to the other speakers in the house. They are not placed in the corners either. Yes, the Klipsch do not have the best bass response. They are my parents speakers and they don't listen to music with booming bass. They will, however, play loud music, very loud, very clearly. When we lived in England, we blew out some windows.

Klipsch still makes their Heritage Series speakers, but they have come out with more modern speakers. The Heritage Series are very old designs.

Yes, effeciency means nothing if you have power.

<small>[ July 05, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: yamahaSHO ]</small>

 

[tfalconier]

in my turbocoupe: Pioneer dehp 8400mp, 5.6 tv, with ps2 behind rear arm rest, rockford fosgate fanatic door components, infinity kappa rear components, infinity front speakers, stinger wiring, optima yellow top trunk mounted, 2 audiobahn aw12q flames in sealed box, jl 1000.1 amp, thinkin of replacing with 1 jl w7 10

jeep: Sony Xplod mp3 deck, stinger wiring, q logic kick panels with infinity kappa speakers, momo component door speakers, infinity kappas in roof sound bar, sony 3 ways in hatch, tweeders in dash speaker grills, 2 12in kicker solobarric s12l7's in slot ported box, jl 1200.1, CAD cap, flip down 6in tv, with dvd player, im soon replacing the kickers with 4 infinity kappa 12's which i got in the garage in a custom ported fiberglassed box, and taking out the sony headunit and putting a pioneer flip out tv in its place, optima yellow top 1 ohm stable.. its DAM loud last time i had it metered it pushed 143spl i know im louder now.

Transam: pioneer deck, ,mb quartz speakers throughout, 1 jl w7 10, sealed box, jl 600.1 amp, optima yellow top

for the sho i have the following to choose from: 2 pioneer decks to choose from, 2 12in jbl gti 1200watt subs, 2 kicker comp vr 12's, 2 boxes, 1 ported, one sealed, 3 amps,2 alpine v12s, rockford fosgate punch 400aiv that they retooled and now puts out 597 watts ( i dont know why you guys knock on rockford fosgate, this amp really pounds) a spare 5.6in tv,2 stinger wiring kits, and 2 sets of infinity component speakers.

You guys shouldnt knock the ppi amps, who remembers the ppi promoss 99watt amp, when wired correctly could easily push out 600 watts, it was banned from sound competitions

 

[Dave Ladely]

For those who want a really sophisticated and edge of technology system, Alto Mobile, at www.altomobile.com has some great car audio equipment, specializing in digital audio for cars.
When I attended the winter CES show in Las Vegas, I came across their booth and was very impressed. You might check them out for what looks like the future in car audio; here is an email I received from their distributor:

Attn: David Ladely,

I hope this e-mail finds you well.

During the CES Show, you had stopped at the Alto Mobile booth expressing aninterest in our unique product line. At that time, hopefully, you had picked up one of our catalogs. If not, may I suggest that you visit our web site at
www.altomobile.com .

The purpose for contacting you is to advise you that we now do have some products in stock (in Milwaukee, Wisconsin), ready to ship.
I am pleased to advise you that we have the following Digital Signal Processors in stock and ready to ship: Dynamate, Sub 16, Control 8, Control 16, Drive 20, Drive 30, and UCS. As for the other products, the UCS Pro, Controller, and Remote will not be available until May. The amplifiers should be in stock by late April, if not sooner. And the woofers look like May. However, we hope to improve on those dates. We will keep you updated.

This being the case, we thought that you might now be ready to order some of our Digital Signal Processors. If so, please contact us directly and we will be happy to both quote you a price and ship you an order. Obviously, if you
need anything else from us, like a catalog or price list, please let me know.

We eagerly await your prompt reply.

Regards,

Eli Gusavac
Danex International
6901 Industrial Loop
Greendale, WI 53129
Tel: (414) 423-5430
Fax: (414) 423-5431
E-Mail: [email protected]

 

[Dave Ladely]

Well, I used my Heart Interface 2500 watt sine wave inverter in my 25' boat, then temporarily installed my 18" Velodyne subwoofer in the cabin. Even though the Velodyne is not boomy and actually rather subtle, partly due to the servo, it was unbelievable impressive, but a bit too much for the boat. I have 8 high end kevlar bass speakers, Dynaudio dome midranges and 8 high end B & K tweeters, powered by over 800 watts rms, but even that was overwhelmed by the subwoofer, so I turned it down. That Velodyne really moves a lot of air. I don't know if it can be beat by a car woofer for pure deep quality base. I played that cut from Jurassic Park that goes down to about 4 hz and it sounded like the Tyrannosaurus Rex was up on the deck stomping the boat to pieces. Since the Velodyne is in a tuned cabinet with its own high power amp, I doubt if any cars subwoofer would really compare with its depth and accuracy.
I think the Sunfire signature would be a better choice. Its really difficult to get great low end in a car (the physics of low frequencies pretty much prohibit it) and the boat cabin is just slightly larger. Much better accoustics, though, as there is lots of padding on the walls and seating. And very solid - no glass to reflect or mechanisms that rattle. The inverter worked great, didn't even get very warm. My next experiment is to put a home multi channel amp in the boat.
I don't leave the stereo in the boat over the winter due to non use and humidity in winter storage with little heat (just a heat lamp).