TOB Problem?

[GreenStreak]

Well I think I diagnosed the problem myself by readeing through some posts here, but I just wanted to be sure.
My clutch seems to be making the "whirring" noise I've heard about. I'm pretty sure it's the TOB from what I've read. It's loudest once I downshift into 1st. I also read that when it gets really worn, it won't let the clutch fully disengage. If this is so, this would explain why it's hard for me to shift into 1st correct? 1st is the toughest, and 2nd is harder than it has been in the past, but the rest are still pretty easy to shift into. Would these be typical problems of a worn-out TOB? If so, where would I be able to find the cheapest, yet good quality replacement? Thanks for any help.

-Rob

 

[GreenStreak]

Oh yeah, and if I do end up needing a new TOB, is there anything else I'm going to need to order along with it?

 

[SonicRiot]

A whirring or a vibration from the clutch pedal? A whirr indicates syncros and would cause the same problems, along with the possibility of bad blocking rings. If you are only hearing it loudly on downshifts, I'd say syncros.

If you feel or hear a vibration in the clutch pedal, your TOB or fork might be bad. A TOB will "sing" at certain RPMs (like my car :cry: ) and a fork will rattle and/or vibrate in a similar manner, but sound more metallic.


BTW, if you do a TOB, do a full clutch job. Otherwise you'll be kicking yourself later. If you do syncros, do blocking rings as well.

 

[GreenStreak]

There is no vibration from the pedal. I have to force it into first and occaisionally second, though nowhere near as bad as first, and once in gets into gear during downshifting, there is a whirring that I believe corresponds with RPMs. From your post this seems to indicate that it's the syncros. I know absoultely nothing about transmissions, so any more help would be greatly appreciated. We have a family friend that's a ford mechanic, so I'll probably have him do whatever needs to be done. Should I just have him check to see what the problem is? Is there anyplace to get syncros? For some reason I thought they were pretty hard to find. Someone please help.

 

[Rockledge]

How's the fluid level?

 

[GreenStreak]

I haven't checked lately. Could that cause these problems?

 

[SonicRiot]

If the case halves are leaking, you are loosing trans oil. If the level gets to low, the internals wont have enough lubricant and will thusly make more noise. Pull the "drain" plug and check the level (parked on a level surface). The fluid should JUST trickle out, but should not be above or below that level (the bottom of the hole).

Syncros are not hard to get, they just seem to be unusually expensive for the SHO (isn't every thing??). Syncros synchronize the gear to the input shaft so the gear doesn't blow up when the teeth catch. At least, in simple terms. They are generally a wear item in most transmissions and require replacement when they make noise. If it's hard to shift into gear, blocking rings could be the problem. Blocking rings are friction pieces that slow everything down to mesh nicley.

Generally, blocking rings and syncros are replaced together. It prevents the possibility of a premature rebuild.

 

[Bizzy]

If the case halves are leaking, you are loosing trans oil. If the level gets to low, the internals wont have enough lubricant and will thusly make more noise. Pull the "drain" plug and check the level (parked on a level surface). The fluid should JUST trickle out, but should not be above or below that level (the bottom of the hole).

Correction on that. Pull the fill plug out to check the fluid level since there is no real drain plug on an MTX. Use a 3/8 ratchet nub to put into the square hole on the plug and remove much like any other bolt. If it is hard to remove you can use a cheater of some sort to help you get leverage needed to remove it.

Dry bearings can also cause a humming noise all the way to a howling noise but generally don't cause shifting problems unless a shaft freezes up. If it's hard to shift into gear don't force it, you'll cause more damage than it's worth. Your particular symptoms would lead me to think you either have bad blocking rings for 1/2 or possibly a bad 1/2 synchro. Contact me if you need any help rebuild wise.

 

[Bizzy]

the blocking rings are the real wear item in a SHO tranny. Synchros don't really seem to go. Course I've only been in 7-8 SHO trannys now, so what do I know?

FWIW, I've found that 90% of the shifting issues expressed sound like a failure of 1 of a few components.

First is the TOB failure, meaining that the TOB falls apart and sticks on the quill never letting the clutch fully engage, leading to a cooked clutch. That will not make shifting dificult. Now if the TOB progresses it can CUT thru the PP fingers, making it so shifting is much harder near impossible from a stop (sometimes shutting the car off and putting it in gear helps) but is just a little notchy while moving. The notchiness is the blockers and synchros taking up the slack of a clutch the never fully disengages when the pedal is pushed down. This situation will only progress to get worse till you have to shut the car off for every gear. My Green 93 was that way when I picked it up. Talk about starting out in a high gear like a racecar being pushed down the track.

Second is PP failures, like a bent strap or bent fingers. This will lead to the clutch never being able to disengage from the FW and PP, meaning that shifting into gear from a stop will be very hard, while moving shifting is notchy, and shifting into revers is damn near deafening. All because the clutch never really disengages to allow shifting. Ask 92sho16 about his bent strap and how his tranny felt.

My money is oun your car having a TOB issue or PP problem, the blockers and synchros are prolly fine.

 

[SonicRiot]

Bizzy... that's why I said "drain" plug. Get it?

I saw Bizzy's photos of her Quaife install. The lady seems to know her stuff.

NetViper, he said he hears a "whirring" on the downshift. That's why I was thinking syncros. I realize syncros aren't supposed to go, but try telling that to the noisy syncros in my transaxle!

Up next for me: transaxle rebuild and quaife install. Maybe. It's never-ending!

 

[GreenStreak]

Correction on that. Pull the fill plug out to check the fluid level since there is no real drain plug on an MTX.

So there's no simple tranny fluid dipstick as there is on my 97 Vulcan? I figure it would be most logical to check the fluid level first.
My spring break is this upcoming week, so I'll have our family mechanic take a look at it to see if he can find the problem. If I get any info, I'll let you know Beth.

 

[SonicRiot]

heehee.

He said "dipstick."



Usually, manual gearboxes do not have dipsticks. Traditionally, they used gear oil instead of ATX, so there wan't a need for dipsticks. Obviously, the trend has changed, but these cars use levels instead of dipsticks.

 

[back2SHO]

The notchiness is the blockers and synchros taking up the slack of a clutch the never fully disengages when the pedal is pushed down. This situation will only progress to get worse till you have to shut the car off for every gear. My Green 93 was that way when I picked it up. Talk about starting out in a high gear like a racecar being pushed down the track.

Second is PP failures, like a bent strap or bent fingers. This will lead to the clutch never being able to disengage from the FW and PP, meaning that shifting into gear from a stop will be very hard, while moving shifting is notchy, and shifting into revers is damn near deafening. All because the clutch never really disengages to allow shifting. Ask 92sho16 about his bent strap and how his tranny felt.

EXACTLY the same problem with my green '93.

sounds like a clutch job is in my future. =)

-t.

 

[GreenStreak]

Ok, I decided to bring this thread back. I wasn't able to get anyone to take a look at it yet, but I think I can describe the problem better, so hopefully I can get a definite answer here.

It doesn't happen all the time, maybe more when the car's still cold, but I'm not sure on that. When I slow for a light up ahead, I'll start breaking, and push the clutch in so I can put it in first so I can get going when the light changes. I know I'm not supposed to, but sometimes I need to force it into gear, not real hard, but not exactly very smooth. As soon as I try to "force" it in, that's when this whine starts. It starts high, and as I slow, the pitch gets lower, almost like it corresponds with engine speed, but not quite.

Did that make any sense? I suck at explaining stuff, but maybe this will help. Hopefully I can have someone take a look at it soon, but I'd like to know what needs to be checked out.

 

[SHOkid13]

Ok, I decided to bring this thread back. I wasn't able to get anyone to take a look at it yet, but I think I can describe the problem better, so hopefully I can get a definite answer here.

It doesn't happen all the time, maybe more when the car's still cold, but I'm not sure on that. When I slow for a light up ahead, I'll start breaking, and push the clutch in so I can put it in first so I can get going when the light changes. I know I'm not supposed to, but sometimes I need to force it into gear, not real hard, but not exactly very smooth. As soon as I try to "force" it in, that's when this whine starts. It starts high, and as I slow, the pitch gets lower, almost like it corresponds with engine speed, but not quite.

Did that make any sense? I suck at explaining stuff, but maybe this will help. Hopefully I can have someone take a look at it soon, but I'd like to know what needs to be checked out.

From what you are explaining, it really sounds like it's time for a clutch job. What you are explaining sounds exactly like what my '93 felt like, and what my '91 feels like. Hard to get it in. Basically, what's happening is the clutch isn't disengaging the trans from the motor all the way, so the trans can't slow down enough to let you engage easily.

Try this: Before coming to a stop put the trans in neutral and let go of the clutch. Then, just before you stop (maybe 5-10mph), push the clutch and shift into first. It should be really easy to shift, and it will protect your transmission (versus forcing it in while completely stopped). You'll have to hold the clutch in until you're ready to go again, but it's worth it. Also, always park with the trans in First.

 

[SonicRiot]

When the clutch pedal is to the floor, there is no connection between the clutch and the flywheel. If it was not fully disengaging, you'd feel grinding and slipping, most likely.

That whine you hear is usually a syncro. The syncro speeds up the shaft so there's no crashing of gears (grinding).

It still sounds like bad syncros. It might not just be a clutch, sounds like it's time for a transaxle rebuild. I'm right there with ya!

 

[Mike Stitzer]

What speed are you trying to shift into first as you approach a stop? If I'm in 2nd and slowing to stop I'll be very slow before going to first. I usually put just a tiny bit of pressure on the shifter. when the syncros do their job the shifter falls right into place. I do this on all cars. Forcing the shifter really makes those syncros work hard to match road and engine speed. In ANY car I've driven you'll hear this happening. Doesn't mean anything wrong, really. Just trying to find out if this is just you not being used to a clunky SHO tranny or not. Shift them slow and shift them gently and they'll last forever. Try to bang shifts like you're in a Civic and you'll be thinning out your wallet real fast.
again, I'm saying you ARE doing this...

Mike

 

[SonicRiot]

agreed. Try putting the car into first with the clutch depressed at over 40 MPH. The gearbox may groan, whine, or feel resistant. This is normal, to an extent of course.