I took my car in for a dyno test a couple of weeks ago and the owner of the shop specializes in Turbos tuning. While one of his guys was strapping Whoosh to the dyno he brought out a compact $500 air to liquid intercooler. The tubular device is a couple of inches longer then the tube I use in front of my TB after the elbow my blowoff valve is mounted to. The other components consisted of a Holley fuel pump and a small heater-core sized coils mounted low up front. He also showed me a 240SX Turbo next to me that was using that device and water/ethenol injection and had just come off the dyno with 379hp with no oterh modification to the stock turbo or fuel injection. We batted numbers around for a while after my pulls, which were dissapointing as the SuperChip I had was not opening my secondaries and the belt was slipping so bad I was only making 6 pounds of boost, but I did read 165+ mph on the chart before I took my foot out of it as the mental image of the straps breaking and me going through two or three buildings before I got it stopped were playing in my head. I am going to try for both (alcohol injection and intercooler) after the SCT arrives and I get my secondareis issue resolved. Yes, the Vortech does not produce intake temps near what a turbo does, but the compression of air does heat it up a bit as anybody who has grabbed the tube between an air compressors head and tank can attest to. Besides, the liquid intercooler can take intake temps down to 20 below ambient, that would be an advantage even to non-blown engines. The key to all this is the 38# injectors I have to get plummed in, which is more then just an afternoon project on the V8. More info as I get it.
Think I found the Holy Grail of boosting
- Thread starter ArkanSHO
- Start date
Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.
TimZ
Member
I'm guessing that this is the product that you are referring to?
I'd try to do a bit more research on this product before spending any cash on it. I'm a little dubious on the ratings that they give - sounds like the one you were looking at is rated at 350hp. Assuming that this is accurate, will this be enough for you?
Also, the way that they define what ratings they do give imply to me a lack of understanding of the physics involved. For instance, the only pressure drop rating they give is "1.1psi at 7psi". Huh? Pressure drop is related to the airflow through the cooler, not the pressure at the inlet, unless you assume that all motors running at 7psi flow exactly the same, regardless of their displacement.
Another one - they claim that "Temperature Drop From In to Out Can Range From 45% - 100%". This really needs a bit more clarification. Is this under all conditions? I doubt it. Temperature drop relative to what? I'm guessing that they must mean temperature drop relative to ambient temperature - i.e., if the inlet temp is 100deg higher than ambient, then a 45% temp drop would mean that the outlet temp was 45deg cooler.
An absolute temperature drop measurement would require everything to be measured in absolute temperature, and a 100% drop in absolute temperature would be physically impossible. So would a 45% drop for that matter.
As I recall, air to water coolers are slightly less efficient than equvalent air to air coolers, neither of which can cool to below ambient by themselves. The only way to get the air-water cooler to take the intake temps below ambient is to do something like run the water through an ice bucket (great for drag racing, useless anywhere else), or integrate it with the air conditioning system, which would not be a trivial exercise - I believe somebody here did this already.
Used by themselves, the main advantage of an air-water cooler is that it generally requires less plumbing on the air side and the heat exchangers are generally easier to package. You will also have to factor in the added complexity of packaging the water pump, reservior, and associated plumbing, and some sort of failsafe in case the pump dies, etc.
Also, in the 240sx example you gave, it's really difficult to evaluate how much the intercooler was adding, as a properly installed and tuned water-alcohol injection system could easily have achieved these results without any intercooler at all. I'm generally not a big advocate of water injection systems, mainly because if they are not properly engineered, any failure in the system (like running out of water) will make your engine go BOOM. However, if you are dead set on getting one, look into the Aquamist systems -I have seen these in action, and as far as I can tell they are the only system out there that has effective failsafes built in.
Just to recap - I'm not saying that this intercooler won't work - I don't have any direct experience with it. However, there are enough questionable items here that I would recommend doing some more research and possibly trying to find somebody that has used one and who isn't trying to sell you one before laying out any cash...
I'd try to do a bit more research on this product before spending any cash on it. I'm a little dubious on the ratings that they give - sounds like the one you were looking at is rated at 350hp. Assuming that this is accurate, will this be enough for you?
Also, the way that they define what ratings they do give imply to me a lack of understanding of the physics involved. For instance, the only pressure drop rating they give is "1.1psi at 7psi". Huh? Pressure drop is related to the airflow through the cooler, not the pressure at the inlet, unless you assume that all motors running at 7psi flow exactly the same, regardless of their displacement.
Another one - they claim that "Temperature Drop From In to Out Can Range From 45% - 100%". This really needs a bit more clarification. Is this under all conditions? I doubt it. Temperature drop relative to what? I'm guessing that they must mean temperature drop relative to ambient temperature - i.e., if the inlet temp is 100deg higher than ambient, then a 45% temp drop would mean that the outlet temp was 45deg cooler.
An absolute temperature drop measurement would require everything to be measured in absolute temperature, and a 100% drop in absolute temperature would be physically impossible. So would a 45% drop for that matter.
ArkanSHO said:
As I recall, air to water coolers are slightly less efficient than equvalent air to air coolers, neither of which can cool to below ambient by themselves. The only way to get the air-water cooler to take the intake temps below ambient is to do something like run the water through an ice bucket (great for drag racing, useless anywhere else), or integrate it with the air conditioning system, which would not be a trivial exercise - I believe somebody here did this already.
Used by themselves, the main advantage of an air-water cooler is that it generally requires less plumbing on the air side and the heat exchangers are generally easier to package. You will also have to factor in the added complexity of packaging the water pump, reservior, and associated plumbing, and some sort of failsafe in case the pump dies, etc.
Also, in the 240sx example you gave, it's really difficult to evaluate how much the intercooler was adding, as a properly installed and tuned water-alcohol injection system could easily have achieved these results without any intercooler at all. I'm generally not a big advocate of water injection systems, mainly because if they are not properly engineered, any failure in the system (like running out of water) will make your engine go BOOM. However, if you are dead set on getting one, look into the Aquamist systems -I have seen these in action, and as far as I can tell they are the only system out there that has effective failsafes built in.
Just to recap - I'm not saying that this intercooler won't work - I don't have any direct experience with it. However, there are enough questionable items here that I would recommend doing some more research and possibly trying to find somebody that has used one and who isn't trying to sell you one before laying out any cash...
Thanks for the link. That is the one I was looking at. Since my application (Vortech supercharger on the intake side of the engine which means not a lot of absorbed heat in a lengthy tube across the the front of the motor) doesn't involve post turbine temperatures starting in the 250 - 300 degree range to remove the heat from, I am fairly confident that it will do what I am looking for. That isn't to say that all the figures they supplied are accurate or even relevent. I just know the other liquid units I looked into was well over a couple thousand and like the air-to-air units required extensive work to mount and plumb in. This one looked like I can do it in an afternoon. The other component in the mix will take care of any other issues dealing with high intake temps anyway. In fact, I have heard of guys using only the water/ethenol injection but I would get worried I might run out during an enthusiastic use of the pedal and with no intake cooling, well, you know the results all to well. So the intercooler is actually just going to be a backup system for the most part. I will do some more research on it though. My main concern is volume capable and leaks. As for temps, pretty much a given it will absorb heat from the design, how much, well that is to be seen.
Lupo
New Member
I have a dual ACT gauge to read the intake temp before and after the aftercooler core.
At 13psi, I have seen upwards of 250f temps on the intake side on a hot day, and 150f just at idle.
My aftercooler cools the charge about 30-50f at idle/cruise. At high boost, the aftercooler bleeds off 100f+. Bleeding off more than 100f at high boost is pretty good no matter how you look at it. All this is without ice/ice water, which would make a much more dramatic difference if you used it.
I still have to do a couple runs with ice in the tank, and post the results.
At 13psi, I have seen upwards of 250f temps on the intake side on a hot day, and 150f just at idle.
My aftercooler cools the charge about 30-50f at idle/cruise. At high boost, the aftercooler bleeds off 100f+. Bleeding off more than 100f at high boost is pretty good no matter how you look at it. All this is without ice/ice water, which would make a much more dramatic difference if you used it.
I still have to do a couple runs with ice in the tank, and post the results.
AutoSHO
No SHO = Mo $$$
I'd say Corky Bell is probably the most respected name in Forced Induction. Pick up "Maximum Boost" by him, definately worth the read.
2L8V8_4sho
SHO Connoisseur
I highly recommend this book. I've gotten a lot of information out it; even though I don't own a turbo vehicle.....yet.
1slickRED89
Guest
Mr. bell's book 'supercharged' has more info on intercoolers than his turbo one. and lots of other stuff as well. Corey
MotorMouth
Love that V8!
AutoSHO said:
The only draw back to Maximum Boost is that it is very out dated. There has been so many advances in turbochargers such as impeller design and efficency along with dual and single ball bearing set up's. Garrettt's GT series turbos are a good example. I would not take what Corky writes as gospel, just a good reference point for building a good turbo set up. Remember that he is also a buisness man and a little bias twards items he peadles. He also thinks water injection is for the devil, not true. I think he called it a "band aid for a poorly designed turbo and intercooler system" in his book
There is a few more good books on turbocharging, Turbochargers by
Hugh MacInnes (or something like that) and Forced Induction Tuning by A. Graham Bell (see here ) The math in Max Boost is very worth while and relitively acurate but like I said there are other things that are outdated.
I would find that hard to believe with just the A2W set up. Mabyee with ice water and alky. Also on naturallu aspirated motors that would create an air flow restriction.
To touch a little on what TimZ wrote...
As for the old air to air or air to water debate I have found this. Having used both in the past the air to air seems to be the best for street use. It dose not tend to heat soak as bad as an A2W because the charge cooler is not located in the engine compartment. Plus there is alot less components that need consideration when being mounted. If it is a street use aplication go with A2A. A2W is great for the track. You can cover the charce cooler in ice and pump ice water into it if you want and get MAT temps very low, but the draw back is that temps tend to go up very fast because there is two things you are fighting. #1 is that the charge cooler is in the engine compartment and there for taking in radiant heat from the motor and #2 that the water needs to be pumped out of the cooler to the coolers radiator and back again (lines running through the engine compartment). Not that A2W dose not work at all (my Typhoon came with it from the factory) but for daily drivers it tends to be less efficent.
Just an example, I converted my Typhoon to air to air and with a 1/4 mile run @ 24psi my start temps were 85 at the start of the run and 128 at the end. This was on a 78 degree day and 30% relitive humidity. With the air to water the lowest full boost temps I seen was 156 at 18psi on a 75 degree day.
If you realy want to fry your brain on intercooler info see here . Lots of good reading in that article and at there site. It is a turbo buick site though, but still good info there.
Brian
Mike Kopstain
New Member
Lupo said:
I'm seeing temperature drops of 110 degrees with mine at WOT. Compressed air is hot.
To add on to what Tim said, a claim of temperatures below ambient is really not possible. Ambient air is going through the heat exchanger to cool the water and that water can not be cooler than the air cooling it. Assuming the system is 100% efficient, the best case scenario would be water temps that are ambient temperature but again, this is assuming 100% efficiency and this won't happen.
That said, water to air intercoolers are nothing new and any car running 8+ lbs of boost (in my opinion) should be running one. Heat is the sole cause of knock uncooled charged air is the number one creater of heat. Bump up the boost a little and enjoy a safer, faster car.
Lupo
New Member
Motormouth:
I see what you are saying as far as heatsoak and such, and it makes sense, but there is one big factor you forgot to mention about water setups that make it especially good for supercharger setups:
The water core has much less boost loss than an air-to-air. If you have a turbo, it's no big deal to lose some boost, you can always turn up the wastegate. On a supercharger, the boost isn't "free", it takes HP, therefore you would want the least amount of boost loss possible. A water core is much smaller compared to and air core, and you have much less piping to make it happen.
I see what you are saying as far as heatsoak and such, and it makes sense, but there is one big factor you forgot to mention about water setups that make it especially good for supercharger setups:
The water core has much less boost loss than an air-to-air. If you have a turbo, it's no big deal to lose some boost, you can always turn up the wastegate. On a supercharger, the boost isn't "free", it takes HP, therefore you would want the least amount of boost loss possible. A water core is much smaller compared to and air core, and you have much less piping to make it happen.
MotorMouth
Love that V8!
Lupo said:
With a properly sized and designed intercooler be it either air to air or air to water the pressure drop can be minimized.There is more of a boost lag issue between the two. You are still going to be getting a pressure variance from the inlet side to the out let side of any intercooler but with the right one it can be kept to a minimum.The only big differance between the A2A and A2W is the distance the charge needs to travel from the compressor out let to the cylinder.
The question is what are you gaining? You may be loosing 1/2 a pound through the intercooler but you are also lowering your intake charge temps therefore puting a cooler and more dense mixture into the cumbustion chaimber. Cooler and denser=more hp.
It is a trade off no matter how you look at it but wich is more benificial in the long run?
Brian
Well, it it weren't for the fact it has been miserably overcast and raining here just about every day since it was put in I would take a pic and post it of my latest addition to the Whoosh, a PWR 920 CFM liquid to air intercooler. Now I know I have been a little stuborn with the admission that my intake temperatures don't require the use of an intercooler, but after seeing Eric's T-Bird had a factory supplied looking intercooler and being shown the air density figures for cooling the intake charge on a standard vehicle and the improvement it can make to a normally aspirated motor, I have to admit that I was convinced that it certainly wouldn't hurt my performance to drop the intake temps by 40-50%. I still have to get the pump, reservior and condensor attatched but the main unit still looks pretty good though very tight under the hood. Should be done tinkering with it this weekend, then the alcohol/water injection and another trip to the dyno after a little fine tuning from Chuck. Film at eleven
BoosSHO
New Member
I WANT YOUR CAR 
. I hope you post the dyno sheet!? 
I take it your not talking about the pre-tuning dyno sheet, though the speed indicator was impressive even though there was more MPH there it was the strange vision in my head of the rear straps ripping from the anchors or the ancors out of the ground and the SHO catapaulting through the cinderblock wall and two other buildings for coming to a stop that made me take my foot out of it.BoosSHO said:
BoosSHO
New Member
Nice! 
You still run stock wheels on it? Would you care to speak of how much $$ has gone into this beast of a machine? I'd bet you can hear it "spool" (Build PSI I know its not a turbo) a little more now with that too eh?
You still run stock wheels on it? Would you care to speak of how much $$ has gone into this beast of a machine? I'd bet you can hear it "spool" (Build PSI I know its not a turbo) a little more now with that too eh?
texantony
Active Member
Wow, that is nice! You guys have alot of good ideas . Now I'm not saying this is good or bad but, I've been running a 50 shot of nos as an intercooler. No restriction on the inlet side, can get way below ambient temps, no need for extra plumbing, and probably weighs the same or less than a conventional intercooler. Now I know there are some bads about it also (like a solenoid can get stuck or something). I just wanted to throw my .02 cents in and say its been working for me pretty good. And bottle fill ups are not at frequent as I would have expected it. Anyways, just another idea.
. Now I'm not saying this is good or bad but, I've been running a 50 shot of nos as an intercooler. No restriction on the inlet side, can get way below ambient temps, no need for extra plumbing, and probably weighs the same or less than a conventional intercooler. Now I know there are some bads about it also (like a solenoid can get stuck or something). I just wanted to throw my .02 cents in and say its been working for me pretty good. And bottle fill ups are not at frequent as I would have expected it. Anyways, just another idea. Similar threads
