Swaybars and Diameters

[SonicRiot]

I need new endlinks, but I was thinking about swapping out my swaybars while at it. I have heard that putting a SMALLER diameter swaybar on front and a larger than stock in the rear will give a "predictable harryness" to the handling of the car. Is this true, or will it end up putting the back end out too much and cause understeer and body-roll (I HATE too much body roll!).

To accomplish this, would I use a Tortise swaybar in front and an upgrade for SHO's in back? Should I just get larger in the rear, or will it benefit me if I get larger than stock in the front AND the rear?

What diameters should I use for ANY of these setups?

Also, are there better bushings availible for swaybars? I think mine are pretty bad and letting the swaybar flop around.(the ones on the subframe to swaybar).

Just to let you know, I do not YET plan on taking the car to the track (because I need parts first!). I would like a very tight but slightly forgiving setup. In otherwords, I really want a Grand Touring feel so I can take it to the track one day and feel good about driving it home too.

But the car handles like crap right now!!!

Thanks.

 

[Lance Cheney]

A '91 should come with a 24mm bar in the front and a 26mm bar in the rear. For best handling I would recommend replacing the rear sway bar bushings with something stiffer (Shonut sells TPR bushings) and replacing the front bar with a 22mm, used on Taurus wagons (take a set of calipers to the boneyard and check before taking). If you want it be more oversteer prone put a 20.6mm bar on the front. You can buy Energy Suspension Ford-compatible front sway bar bushings from any performance shop (and a lot of normal auto shops) for <$20 -- 22mm uses a 7/8" bushing, 20.6mm uses a 13/16" bushing.

The sway bars will change the balance of the car and the stock 24/26mm combo is still pretty push-happy. A 20.6/26mm might be getting iffy for street use, and the 22/26 is a nice compromise.

-Lance

 

[twr]

Just a foot note to what Lance said. I have a 24mm FSB with Ford's rubber bushings and a 26mm RSB with the TPR bushings and HD endlinks from Josh @ Shonut. My car has no push, in fact the harder I accelerate through a corner, the harder it pulls into the corner. The back of the car will start to slide out a little but is very perdictable, atleast to me. It will start to rotate if I lift off the throttle to quick, but getting back on the gas brings it back in line.

 

[SonicRiot]

What about a 22/28 setup? Too hairy? I want the car to be more neutral, a little oversteer is good too. I just hate this understeer/push crap. The car rolls like a truck and it drives me nuts.

Although, it could be the 6 inch wide slicers with 60% profile!?!?! throwup

But I'll get wheels soon, so I'll take care of this stuff until the warmer weather rolls around to put on some nice wheels.

Oh...and what endlinks should I use with these setups? The aluminum ones for Sho Nut?

<small>[ March 04, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: SonicRiot ]</small>

 

[Dan H]

Go with either a 22/26 or 23-24/28 set up, from what I have heard the 22/28 will have too much oversteer. I asked about this a while back and the majority of experienced people told me a 22/29 combo would be downright scary.

 

[FAST4DR]

My car has the stock 20.6 with rubber bushings on the front and a 26mm with all tpr bushings on the rear. Now take into consideration my upgrades, tires, all tpr suspension bushings, Alignment of -(.8 front)(-.3 rear)(0 toe all around), etc. below and my car will kick the rear end out on command. It is a little too tail happy. It's great for slow turns, but in a high speed sweeper, if you go into too fast, you will end up in an oversteering slide. It's fun if you like tossing the car around, which I do, but it's not the safest for everyday emergency maneuvers.

At Summit Point in the rain the rear end stepped out on every turn, just from the initial turn in!

I am going to put the 24mm bar on the front and see how I like it.

Here is a picture of me coming out of a turn with my current setup.

Coming out of Corner
Doglegging through the cones

Will

 

[Lance Cheney]

FAST4DR:
My car has the stock 20.6 with rubber bushings on the front and a 26mm with all tpr bushings on the rear. Now take into consideration my upgrades, tires, all tpr suspension bushings, Alignment of -(.8 front)(-.3 rear)(0 toe all around), etc. below and my car will kick the rear end out on command. It is a little too tail happy. It's great for slow turns, but in a high speed sweeper, if you go into too fast, you will end up in an oversteering slide. It's fun if you like tossing the car around, which I do, but it's not the safest for everyday emergency maneuvers.

At Summit Point in the rain the rear end stepped out on every turn, just from the initial turn in!

I am going to put the 24mm bar on the front and see how I like it.

Here is a picture of me coming out of a turn with my current setup.

24mm? You're crazy. Just put stiffer bushings on the front and be done with it. At the *most*, a 22mm. If you've got adjustable rear arms you can also just dial in a bit more negative camber at the back -- I run -1.1deg in the back all the time and haven't noticed adverse tire wear. Besides, having a smaller bar in the front is good for traction.

-Lance

 

[FAST4DR]

I want to reduce the front roll rate. Notice in the first picture the pig twists like crazy. I am going to increase the front neg. camber a little too, maybe like -1.2 deg. Then later I want to get some adjustable front camber plates, so I can rack it over for say -2 to -2.5 degress of camber for autocross and back to less than -1 for street driving. Also, I would like a roll cage tied to the strut towers to stiffen the whole chassis.

Will

 

[Lance Cheney]

FAST4DR:
I want to reduce the front roll rate. Notice in the first picture the pig twists like crazy.

Hmm. I personally think reducing the roll rate is overrated. Putting on a bigger bar means that in a corner you have less weight on the inside tire, and the outside tire is loaded that much more, reducing overall traction (not just in a straight line). My impression was that the more even the load the better your cornering traction will be.

Granted, the best way to do this is to get stiffer springs and lose the roll bar (this would not be good for autocrossing where it bumps you at least one class), but my (very amateur) opinion is that the larger bar is going to hurt you overall, even if you were to get a bigger one for the back to rebalance the car (bigger rear bar = less traction in the rear too, for the same reason)

I'm not an expert -- this is just what I've been lead to believe from reading various materials about suspension dynamics.

-Lance

<small>[ March 06, 2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Lance Cheney ]</small>

 

[drivinhard]

"At Summit Point in the rain the rear end stepped out on every turn, just from the initial turn in!"

They all do that, that track has grease that seems to seep through the pores when it rains, it's slick as snot on a doorknob.

I'd sorta agree with lance to stay away from the big front bar, especially for auto-xing. For most SHO's 22/26 seems to be the best street/occasional track balance. Realize car type, weight, tires/wheels, alignment, etc and every other variable in the world goes into this. More rear negative camber will gain you a little grip in the rear. You'll pick up a little steering sharpness with the bigger bar, turn in is a little less sharp with smaller bar, but it's like anything, in 20 laps you get the hang of it. I ran no front bar/26mm on my old winter beater, 2 winters in the snow. Was good practice, keeps you on your toes

It'll probably be the death of me (still fixing my 89 from a nice wild off track ride at Road Atlanta a few weeks ago), but I like my car loose. It's the fast way around. A car that pushes really kills your momentum.

 

[cstrat]

I made this same comment on the other thread, but I have the 24/26 setup with poly/tpr bushings and I like the setup. The car feels real neutral and you can turn hard and power through turns until you lose traction, then feather the throttle to keep right on that edge. It seems fast to me, but I am no expert, I just know I can predict what the car is going to do and there is some value in that.

 

[Lance Cheney]

drivinhard:

It'll probably be the death of me (still fixing my 89 from a nice wild off track ride at Road Atlanta a few weeks ago), but I like my car loose. It's the fast way around. A car that pushes really kills your momentum.

Ouch. My car had an 'offroad excursion' last April at the hands of my friend (at Thunderhill) and I just noticed about a week ago that I had a bent rear control arm to go along with it (one of those cheap tubular GTP ones, no less). Always fun finding new things broken!

-Lance

 

[drivinhard]

Yeah it's fun to post inspect and keep finding broken stuff. Better to find it then, than finding it later the hard way.

I'm in the middle of a suspension overhaul, so it's a good time to inspect all the pieces I suppose.

 

[thebigjimsho]

I know it's been said, so I'll say it again. I believe the best setup for the everyday driver and occasional autocrosser is the 22/26.

I had almost every suspension mod there was including Eibach/Konis, R1 race rubber, and the 20.6/26 setup. I found it very neutral for the most part with some lift-induced oversteer. The setup was great for autocrossing and I did not find it to be too much for Road Atlanta. And I really enjoyed it as my daily driver.

But that's just me.

 

[cstrat]

Question: I guess I like my setup because it's a nice predicatble push. If I wanted to make the car turn better but stay away from a "lift induced oversteer" with the 20.5mm, as bigjim put it, could I put a 22mm front bar on but instead of Poly bushings, use new rubber ones, wouldn't that get me more in the middle of the two. I thought I read somewhere on here where someone was using valve springs where the swaybar connects to the end link to accomplish the same thing but I can't find where I read it.

 

[drivinhard]

drop throttle oversteer can be your friend in a FWD car, drive hard to the turn in point, lift and turn in, if you can get the car to rotate correctly, you are back hard in the gas and through the apex like a rocket. FWD can be pretty fast, maybe not ideal, but I think if you maximize what's there, and try to use the car's "weakness" as a strength, you can pester the heck out of a lot of "balanced" RWD rides.

With the SHO being so nose heavy, the tail is so light it'll tend to wag around on you, but not totally come around (unless you really screw up). You can really steer these things with the go pedal pretty well.

 

[cstrat]

Awright. My car is plain diff. If I were running coilovers with 450/300 with the 20.6mmF/26mmR setup you think the lift induced oversteer would be manageable with a little practice? Would that be the main time the rear is gonna want to come around-on lift?

I think your approach about making the nose-heavy tendency of the car work for you sounds like the smart approach. Might be a little uncomfortable at first but probably the quickest way around the course.

the tail is so light it'll tend to wag around on you, but not totally come around (unless you really screw up).

At least in autox if you really screw up, you probably aren't gonna do any damage.

Thanks.

 

[93medusa]

lift oversteer is exactly how i would get around tight corners in auto-x, works like a charm. It's a lot quicker than plowing from the front, that is for sure, and it really isn't THAT ******* the car, especially towards the end of the day when there is lots of rubber down already.

 

[drivinhard]

I'm coming from the context of running at the track, I don't hang the tail out at 100 mph on the way to pick up milk at the local Kroger

For slow speed auto-xing, you really want the car to rotate for you, so lift throttle oversteer and even some trailbraking to lighten the rear even more will help you rotate, and getting some more rear roll stiffness into the car. Also air pressure's front/rear can help with balance.

For higher speed road courses, it's just preference, and up to the track. You probably wouldn't want the car that twitchy at higher speed. Typically DOT race tires are a little more predictable and easier to "catch" than street tires, and the limits are much higher. Just make sure they are up to temp, in the SHO this can take a few laps for the rears. You'll be backwards before you know it, been there done that